Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby ratch » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:58 pm

This is a very short edited clip of the original


Ratch's Log - (Days 1 to 42)

I jumped July 13, 2005 and started posting 7 days later when the symptoms got worse.. I had no idea what was going on at the time.


THIS IS MY LOG of stopping Buprenex/suboxone/Subutex
(Yes I have had all 3)

I have edited out all other posts but my own for this version. The support I got from everyone was AMAZING and I couldnt have gotten this far without it. I just did not want to reprint that much text and for right now I just wanted to document the account..If you already read this its just the same stuff!

I Got Myself down to a 1/4 of an amp a day for a week on the following schedule:

4-6 amps a day average (For about 7 years straight) = to (8mg to 16mg sub)
3 amps a day (About a week) = to about (6mg sub)
2 amps a day (Once every 10 to 12 hrs) (about 2 weeks) (4mg sub)
1 amp a day for a week (1 mg sub)
1/2 an amp a twice a day for about 3 days (1mg sub)
1/2 an amp once a day for 3 days (.5mg sub)
1/4 an amp a day for 6 or 7 days. Then I stopped. (.25mg sub)



I have been on Buprenex mainteneance for 7 years.
I have never met my children sober. 3 of them.
I feel like I have been living in a fog the last couple of years.

I tried to stop taking 1 mg. (1/8 of a 8 mg pill) of suboxone every other day, and at day 2 I was informed that it is easier to taper with the injectable version, Buprenex. Being an addict and wanting my wd's to be as easy as possible.I found out that subutex/suboxone stays in the system a little longer than the injectable. Plus its easier to come off one drug @ a time than bup and naltrexone so I immediately switched over to injections, (pure bup). after initially doing 3 to 4 amps a day ( about equal to 8 mg. sublingual I think) for 30 days I followed a taper schedule I read on this string somewhere. Long to short I got myself down to 1/4 an amp a day for a week.

Then I stopped cold turkey 6 days ago, my last injection was 1/4 an amp. at Tues # 3:30 am
My log:
(Day 1) Tues to Wed. -awesome
(Day 2) A little tired, yawning a lot (Slept 5 hrs)
(Day 3) Nausia, on toilet every hour, runny nose, slight (but tolerable) chills in arms and chest. (No Sleep at all)
(Day 4) Same as above, a little stronger everything but still quite tolerable. plus RLS (Restless leg syndrome) Started (No Sleep at all)
(Day 5) Same as above, no worse tham yesterday (Still no sleep yet)
(Day 6) I think chills are decreasing a little (Still no sleep)
(Day 7) I Feel a bit better, chills have decreased enough for me to stop wearing a long sleeve shirt all the time (Slept for 2.5 hrs )
The one thing which is true, Compared to OXY/Percs/or Vics, this is a cake-walk so far. I just hope I can get to sleep soon. I havent stayed up this long since my coke days back in the 80's.


(Day 7 Still) Throughout this process I have tried the following medications to help ease the constant uncomfortableness:
Ultram/ultracette/Tramadol- Doesnt do crap. Did 10x the reg dose, stopped after day 3, it was useless for me
immodium- works great keeping me off the toilet every 15 min.
Calcium/Magnesium/Iron- Dont feel any different, but hey it cant hurt to ease the chills and RLS (restless leg syndrome)
Goodys Powders- 2 sleeves every 5 to 6 hrs. guess it takes a slight edge off. This stuff does help, by the way all it is ]is asprin/tylenol/and caffeine in a pure powder form, sold at fine truckstops everywhere
Advil-3 every 4 hrs
WATER WATER WATER as much as I can handle- it is the only way Buprenex can get out of your system. Just dont overdue it, I am upto a gallon a day. and only expelling about 1/2 to 3/4 a gallon a day and I have still lost weight.
Ambien- 15 mg. I got about 6 hrs of sleep on day 8

I feel tired, wired, a wee bit o' chills, but damn it I feel a bit better, and I ate my first full meal tonight.

It Really hasnt been too bad so far.


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 20 2005 : 3:11:09 PM
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The reasons why I am trying to stop Bup.

1) I feel like I was living in a fog, forgetting names, people, places, my brain on bup. is definitely not even running at 80% (This is me)
2) Guilt over needing to take medication everyday to feel normal
3) I would like to look back on the past and know that I lived at least a small portion of it sober, I have been using for almost 20 years nonstop. H C CM OXY HYD VIC PER LOR. It all started when I was 18. I Think I was straight for a total of about a year for the past 20. 1998 to 1999 (I Think)
4) I Do not even feel that good after taking Bup anymore. I Get these weird chills in my arms that NO amount of Bup/SUB will remove
5) I have to travel over 800 miles every time I need to re-up.
walk a mile for a camel is something, but 800?? C-mon
6)Why take something I dont need or want? Doesnt really do too much for pain, and believe me I KNOW PAIN I was in a really bad accident, the only thing holding my left arm on my body was a bit of skin and muscle. I shattered My collarbone in about 20 pieces, , 12 ribs in 25 places, tore all the skin off my arm, (It looks like a purple piece of meat 6 mos later)Punctured both lungs, I Have had 3 surgeries in the past 4 months totaling 4 plates, 3 rods, 26 screws, and 2 pins, oh yeah and two broken legs ( Barely felt that). All in the same accident)I still cant touch my ear with my left arm, and I am taking nothing but Advil and Goodys powders. Yes its sore and yes it hurts but should I use it as an excuse and go ahead and numb myself for another 20 years? I can probably go into the most conservative doctor and get OXY 40's out of them once I take off my shirt, but this is the junkie again talking, always was.. always will be here.

Sorry for rambling, but it takes my mind off how I feel. This is my DAY 8 - of NO Buprenex and I feel better but lazier and less motivated.





(Day

By the way I was also lied to, I was told the w/d off a bup would take a week with Flu-like symptoms Well today is the tail end of day 8 for me and I feel weak and depressed and flu like. But better than I have in almost a week



Never throughout this past week have I even thought of doing my Safety Amp In case things got so bad. I just wish my head would clear, a foggy head is about 95% of the reason I stopped. By the way I just squirted that safety amp across the room. Nothing can even tempt me now.


Day 8
Well time has certainly slowed down. I will remember every second of this week for a long time. At no time in the past 8 days has it every gotten too bad. Its just taking sooo long, the chills are back in my arms and chest again. And my head feels like it has filled up with fluid. Ears are always ringing. I had to goto the Dr today and I told him of my Symptoms He said it sounded like I was in total renal failure. I couldnt tell him the truth because he reports to my employer. I am not depressed, but I have NO motivation at all. Oh yeah I slept about 6 hrs last night with the help of 15 mg of Ambien.



Day 9I WANT TO SMACK MY DR> UPSIDE HIS LYING HEAD.
A week of lethargy...stopping Bup is what I was told

Things have gotten worse again, stomach won't stop churning, chills have gotten so bad the long sleeve shirt is on again, didnt sleep a wink last night, took 30mg of Ambien eyes never closed. My wife thinks I am dying, I keep telling her I am ok, Just caught a really bad bug but after 9 days...thats a madagascar hissing monster bug.
BTW (She is so fed up with all my abuse/use) She finds out that I was using anything/bup included I will have to start paying to see my kids through lawyers and the courts. And with my past history, maybe a supervised visit every 10 years Nope.. I gotta go through this one alone. I should have switched to another Drug for 90 days, weaned, and jumped. I have read upwards of 90 to 120 days before I will feel OK? WTF am I trying to do/did to myself?


- Thanks a lot for the support. My other posts (different Category) about how deceived I was about what Bup Is,Was ,Does, Lasts..etc. Have really hit home. But this long term use had really played a number on my head, and 3 of my closest Bup Buddy's, we all stopped taking Oxy's about 2 weeks apart. that was 7 years ago. We all feel lack of motivation, no sense of adventure, foggy, no attention to detail, hazy, unmotivated, you get the jist. Bup made me feel like a new man for almost 3 years and I Fathered 3 healty kids while using it. Its just now those kids are starting to get older and need more of my mind and less of my body,

Day 9- I feel really crappy today like between days 4 and 6 (yes the worst ones) I didnt sleep at all , how many time have I said that already. thanks Bup,


I keep telling myself No way, but you are right. Long term benefits are going to reap long term havoc on my body. I have a feeling I am in for one hell of a ride. And as far as the chills go, I was getting chills while on a full dose of bup/sub, so has one other long term user that I know. It was just a little uncomfortable. I guess mt receptors were being repressed for so long they started to develop new pathways to my chest temperature gauge . But a lil ol chill is nothing compared to teeth chattering, convulsing (Last time I jumped off oxy @ 300mg a dy.) But then again that only lasted like 4 to 5 days I think, then again, I was also back in my mid 20's and I didnt yet have half my body re-built with titanium either. By the way my stomach finally settled again, I am going to see my kids the first time today by merely walking down a flight of stairs, and its only 4pm Hey kids here comes superdad (sic) to pat your cute lil heads as his stinking w/d'ing butt comes downstairs for the first time today. I Really Suck

Ratch out.




I want to love because i feel like it.
I dont want to love because I have to.
I want to have a little patience with my kids. Not bite my teeth every time I hear a little voice say Daddy
I want to remember what their first words were, I have no idea.
What did they weigh when they were born? When was the last time I told my wife how much I appreciated her, or got her flowers without the words day being attached to them. I used to call my Mom every couple of days, now I talk to her like twice a month. FOR NO REASON. Other than I have become extremely introverted, never ever like this before year 4 of Bup. I never got depressed before, or now...I am sluggish but chipper as long as I dont have to move anywhere.

Oh FYI: Playing games online really helps keep the mind off the crappy feelings....just dont ever stop, because its really hard to get remotivated to turn the game on again.

And by the way... This is MY LOG of how I feel @ Day 9 of no Buprenex/Subu. I am pretty angry about what I have done, what this drug has done, and how I have been lied to.


Ratch





Day 9

Time to be humble. I have really never felt So bad that I was tempted, I spoke to a Bup Friend today and he told me if I needed I could have 100 amps Fedex'ed here by 10am tomorrow. I politely refused, he told me he was proud of me, but he could not believe it was taking this long. I really thought a 30 day taper would have done the trick, Guess not for a 7 year user. I do feel a bit better now, and I will sleep tonight through hell or highwater. Does anybody know just how many ambien are toxic?

And thanks for all the support to everyone, it really does help, and before I am ever tempted to use again I can always come back and re-read this log first. That should stop me in my tracks.
(and it pretty much did... 9/19/2012... over 7 years later I am so far still clean)


Thanks, I just have a bad feelin that this is not going to be over anytime soon. Physically I feel weak, and mentally I dont really want to do anything. Chills are subsiding again,

Ratch



Day 10-Got about 5 hours of broken restless sleep last night, and when I got up I felt better, not good, not ok but better, I have regained about 20% of my motivation, and physically I feel fair, I dont feel per=se sick anymore.

If I havent said this enough, the support from everyone has been really helpful and awesome, knowing that people are out there with their fingers crossed for you does help, a lot. And I really want to feel good soon so I can tell everyone how long it took a seven year bup/sub user to feel good again.



Day 10
I have pretty much never had any cravings, except to make this crappy feeling go away. The w/d's were mild but lasted a long time. Today I was able to move around a bit, drive myself to the dr. {For my arm, totally unrelated to bup/sub) Sit in a C/T scan machine and hold my breath for like 40 seconds 3 times. And then around 2pm a wave of exhaustion just hit me. Didnt want to move, still dont, but I find if I keep busy, like typing, it isnt as bad. It is just a ringing in my ears. My eyes want to close but I dont really feel tired. Now for anyone following this log, I still don't want to say the words OK quite yet. But if the daily progression continues, it will be soon.
PS- If my left arm was working, I definitely would have been able to work all day. Oh BTW I have been out almost every day of the ten picking up smokes, going to get food, going to dr appointments, It never was so bad I couldnt function when I had to. Without my smokes I would have never made it this far. Had to get them.


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 22 2005 : 5:59:18 PM
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Day 10 Energy comes and goes, or should I say these waves of total and utter exaustion just hit me. Physically I feel beat up and exausted. Wife keeps asking me to help with the kids, 2 four year olds and a 2yr old running around jumping on me is fun for a few minutes, then the exaustion just sets in. It takes a little motivation to get things done. At this point I would just say I feel cranky and tired and dizzy, no pain, not sick in the least bit. Ears ringing is really annoying, but even that has quieted down a bit.


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 22 2005 : 7:11:47 PM
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Day 10 - Thought about doing coke today, just a line or two to get moving.....Wait a sec I havent touched that crap in 17 years, Boy isnt the mind just a jug full of demons, whether you are using or not. That is one chapter of my life I will hopefully never re-live again, And just this past year I learned that people can shoot crack? Wow I though smoking it was bad enough. I wonder what evil and hellish ways people will get stoned in ten years from now, when my kids are in their early teens... Ahhh ain't life just a bowl full cherries.


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 23 2005 : 10:10:53 AM
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Day 11-

Yes I always was hot and sweaty, setting the a/c down real cold to 70/69 did the trick. But your tolerances to heat/cold get all f'ed up after years of any kind of opiate abuse. Its over 80 right now and when I go outside I still have a slight chill in my arms and chest.

it been long but a fast 11 days...Today I will say the words, physically I feel OK just keep getting REALLY unmotivated to do the smallest of tasks. Got 6 hrs solid sleep last night. Woke up at 5, took care of the kids so the wife could sleep late from 6am to 9:30am. As soon as she showed her face at 9:30 I ran upstairs as fast as I could to escape. I did notice one Major change for the positive side. While on my extended sub use I would let the pill sit under my tongue for at least a 1/4 to 1/2 hour (4mg) before I could even get out of bed and start my day. Now I can jump out of bed like 123 and then the exhaustion hits me a bit later...Just an observation.

Physically I feel ok, but just really unmotivated...actually just the way my Dr. told me I would feel at day 2 or 3...

Caffeine has no effect BTW.... I have been trying everything otc.

Ratch


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 23 2005 : 3:21:57 PM
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Day 11 3:15 pm. I feel ok, tired and unmotivated. But No more wave of utter exhaustion. Best way to describe it (yesterday, and days 7-10) was like an invisible 600lb gorilla was just laying on top of me and the only way for me to do anything was to wrestle it first, muster up the motivation to complete the smallest of tasks..answering a phone, going to the bathroom, etc... But No invisible gorillas today so far.



Day 11+ 13hrs 16min

Thanks for the pos+ Support Melissa. It has definitely started to get better, tolerable to a point of full functioning actually, but it really still does take a lot of mental coaxing to do simple tasks, the 600 pound gorilla jumped back on me again around 5pm but it only weighed errrrr...350lbs. I am probably looking too much into this, but until I feel good, not great..Ears are still ringing a bit (not as much) The chills have gotten much better, but remember, I have 4 titanium plates/rods that are newly installed in my collarbone/shoulder/arm so that my sober body might be havin a hard time getting use to the temp differential of the hardware...just a guess, so maybe I am a worse case scenario..But I also want people to know that a low taper might not be that picnic we all thought it was. I mean 1/4 an amp a day, that is exactly .075 ml of Bup a day....Thats a really low taper I have heard rumors about people taking 1/10 an amp a day, which would be .030 ml a day..... is bup that strong? Just ramblin' Anyhow Gorrila just hopped off me to take a whatever, I am going to make a break for some food before it gets back on my battered butt...

P.S. You guys have been awesome, and this sure beats the piss out of having to drive/find a N/A meeting......yeah I'm guilty of being addicted to that too for a while... My motto has become...Anything Works If You Work It...The only program you need is a little will, a computer, a phone, and running out of your stash is a great motivator...


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 23 2005 : 10:38:27 PM
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(An ACTUAL recent conversation with myself) About an hour ago.....

Hey maybe once we are clean for a while we can just take one or two pain pills for the pain in my arm/shoulder
When have we ever been satisfied with one or two pain pills?
Well what if we just take them until we catch a buzz, and then stop right away?
Every time we have tried that method we overshot the buzz and went straight to the totally wasted out part, and by the way when did we ever just take pain meds once and then stop?
Oh we did it just once plenty of times...don't you remember?
Umm..No actually I think the shortest time we were ever on pain meds was about 3 months, then we couldnt get anymore.
Man you are just no fun anymore
Does the way we have felt for the past 12 fucking days NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?
Well sure it does, but one or two couldn#146;t really hurt could it? Think how much better it would make you feel right now? You might even get your energy back right away?
Yeah and think how we would feel after w'd-ing on 300mg of oxy again?

Then I turned on the tv...

Can you believe this a-hole? Trying to get me wasted and I just stopped. I would smack him if it wouldnt hurt so bad..Wouldnt it be great to perform exorcism on evil self for a while...

Ratch

Ratch Out..



Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 23 2005 : 11:10:08 PM
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Day 11-
Almost forgot to mention one very very minor symptom. Sneezing, like 4 to 6 times in a row I have never sneezed more than 3x at most ever This started day 4 and has not let up yet...And I still can't even get the sensation of being tired yet. I have been up since 5am and I could tell without taking something I would be up all night. Right now I feel OK, I have some motivation, but it's too late to get anything done. WHY does my body wait until I am ready to try to go to bed to get motivated? Hey at least I'm getting some energy back...Guess I shouldn’t complain about the timing.

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Edited by - Ratchett on Jul 23 2005 11:32:15 PM




1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 24 2005 : 11:06:52 AM
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Don't worry that was just my addict mind talking to my wd'ing self. Just wanted myself and others to know that even after 11 umm make that 12 days of long,slow,pretty mild,yet annoying torture my inner voice will probally always be there to tempt me. I use the word demons but in reality its just self. I wish I had the strength to ALWAYS stop thinking like that, but it is more like a self control issue. Is we could all easily conquer our inner evil voice that says ohhh just one more time... Then I doubt this board will be here at all.




Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 24 2005 : 11:12:39 AM
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Day 12-

I feel ok...Totally tolerable for even an infant, but just not good . I dont want to go out to get some soda/pop. If I could figure out a way to get energy right now...I would most definitely say then that I felt good.





Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 24 2005 : 1:11:25 PM
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I sat at home for 5hrs procrastinating over getting some soda, finally I muster up the energy to drive out to pick up a 12pk of Mt Dew. Well I am taking/drinking a multivitamin, and B-6/B-12 and Ginseng in my energy drinks, they perk me up for aboutn ohhh 20 min. Then energy lev really drops.

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Edited by - Ratchett on Jul 24 2005 1:12:48 PM


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 24 2005 : 8:48:23 PM
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Day 12-
Physically I feel ok, almost no more chills in arms and chest at all anymore, unless I concentrate on it (and of course I do ) But the major problem since day 10 has been these waves of lack of motivation/exhaustion...I don't feel depressed at all. I gets slightly better every day, But damn......When am I just going to feel just good. Don't worry I have no plans on using again, but then again who ever does...plans in advance to use that is...




1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 25 2005 : 10:17:54 AM
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Day 13
Feel pretty ok, been slightly motivated, still having a really hard time falling asleep, I noticed that I still don't get the sensation of tired ...I mean my eyes get heavy, but mind is still humming. At this stage work is a piece of cake. I am going to try Sudafed,B-12, Ginko/Ginseng today and I will tell you how it worked.




Posted - Jul 25 2005 : 3:41:12 PM
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Day 13 +12hrs
I am really sick of feeling this crappy for this long. Yes I feel Ok but just ok.. I still cant feel the 93' heat+ 95% Humidity on my body outside. Yes I still sweat like a pig, and I get wickedly uncomfortable, but I don't feel physical warmth. I am REALLY trying my best to look at all the positives and I sure do feel much better than days 3-8, But if this is going to go on fo 30+ days, I might have to seek an alternative... I mean whats the use of a mild detox if it lasts forever.... I am just venting, i have no desire to use.....yet. But Come on I am almost at 2 weeks already and I really havent felt good, not even barely good yet. By the way, I am as tough as nails and can endure just about anything, But 2 weeks My anger makes me stronger.



Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 25 2005 : 5:07:28 PM
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Just takes effort to do anything. No appetite, and no way any motivation to go for a walk, I cant even shave, Been Reading a lot into other peoples posts to find out how long this is going to take. Guess in another 2 weeks I should be back to normal. Cravings are almost non-existent for me. I had 10 oxy/hyd 15mg in my hands last night, and I had no desire to fuel this furnace and reset the clock of wd's again, I wasnt even tempted in the least bit. Then again......It wasn't really enough anyways......
This is just my personal recommendation..... If you want to quit Bup/Subutex (Not Suboxone) Just switch over to oxy/hyd/perc/darv's whatever for 60 days, then jump off and maybe use bup for like 2-3 days when the wd's get really bad. Had anyone tried to do it like that before? I Mean Come ON 30 days of feeling like crap??????





Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 25 2005 : 5:36:08 PM
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I Am and I have always been an addict. I dont mean to scare anyone, but the bottom line is;Take the short and easy path, or the long and painful one;Hmmmm doesnt take me too long to think about it. Anyways, most of us switched to sub. for one reason or another, Just the next time you switch make it your last time. Make a conscious decision, I mean come on if you are reading these posts I doubt any of us are even getting off anymore at this point, so why bother? If I knew it would have taken this long, and given so many of my previously mentioned problems, I would have probably switched and jumped off years ago. I am by no means at this point going to switch back, unless at day 30 I still cant feel just right, not even good, not great, just motivated enough to answer a phone, feed a dog, wash a dish, take a walk, even think about having sex;. 30 days is that REALLY asking a lot?????







Now Tenster......60 days to get energy back??????? Whoa there Nelly...I NEVER signed up for that one, Now I am human, I am from earth, to intentionally endure 30+ days of total misery...Now when I say lack of energy let me be real specific...

-My kids are in bed right now screaming for me and I cant get out of the chair to see what they want.
- I have not shaved in 13 days (because I can't)
- The phone could ring/burst into flames and I still wouldnt be able to do a thing.
- Moving, eating ,walking ,getting to the bathroom, cleaning, pretty much anything that requires movement has become a major chore.

I did not write this to be an inspiration, if it is then hey thats great. I wrote this so people will see what one long term user is going through, and ihey they even might realize that even with a really low taper, this crap sticks to you like glue, and it is no walk in the park, long term use ends up being a misery, I thought I was running out of steam while on Bup, but boy the last 4 days the reality train just pulled up right on my face and it still hasnt rolled off.

Now I just want to be really clear, I was warned that lack of energy would be a symptom of getting off Bup, I just underestimated what lack of energy meant ,( and the length of time its taking) before stopping I was kinda amused actually by this alleged lack of energy, because I am a naturally hyper person, I figured that won#146;t happen to me. Wrong yet again#133;#133;lying around like a lump is really taking its toll on my sanity. I am just sooo not use to feeling like this. Too tired to eat, go to the bathroom, have sex, even thinking about physical activity is exhausting. Now mentally I am committed to stop, but my sanity is really being put to the test right now.

Still staying strong

Ratch

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Edited by - Ratchett on Jul 25 2005 8:19:51 PM



1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 25 2005 : 10:09:08 PM
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I mean I am up to like up to 600mg a day #20 30mg hyd.. so it was like a little tease at best anyways, and then what? I have always been a really good pillhead and always had at least a weeks worth in advance before even starting..I mean come on what good is getting off if you cant stay off..right? It was more like willpower vs. common sense vs. 13 days of punishment vs at night I always feel a bit better.

I really did not think for a second my words would help anyone stop. I mean for the past 20 years I have seen, heard, read, felt many many more motivating factors for me to stop using than my posts whining most of the time, But the bottom line is the only way I ever stopped is it just kinda hits you...not that I want to stop. That want can go on for years.. ..But that I AM GOING TO STOP It hit me 17 years ago when I stopped basing coke (17 years clean from coke) and I never went through a second of w/d#146;s from that, a little anxiety a few cravings and that was that. And I never looked back, Granted I moved on to different drugs about a 3 years later, pills then H, then pills, then Bup, then pills,then bup. But man I am 5 hrs from day 14 and so far the progression has been pathetic at best. I still have chills in both arms and my chest (only one arm has rods/pins) so it cant be totally blamed on my misfortunate hardware, and energy issues, wont even elaborate on that anymore.

Now I just thought about something, why do I have the energy to type when I can barely wipe my nose ; For some reason talking/typing takes my mind off of it. I mean if I have to I can do anything right now, I just dont want to. But then again I really don#146;t have anyone I could talk to either, my wife just thinks I have a really bad cold, the constant sneezing makes that one an easy tale#133; Plus she thinks I have been clean from Bup for like two years now. I keep thinking I have said all this crap before but I am just getting too lazy to re-read all the posts. I can type, just not read#133;.

Like I know I have said before, why should anyone have to go through this much frustration when a 3-4 days w/d off oxy/hydro 30 to 50 mg is nothing compared to this (time wise of course) , just my opinion but if the cure is worse than the problem ;why go through it ;hey I am trying to make it easy for you guys. I am in a fortunate position that I work when I want out of my house ( I trade Stocks), but a job in the real world#133;ouch, ouch, ouch.. Who could afford or want to take 14 days off of work to feel like crap Sick days are for you to do fun things, you sleep at your desk when you are sick at work, You take two sick days to go to Disney with the kids, yes I use to work in the real world too. Where was I even going with this? O yeah.



Day 14

I still feel the same, stomach finally settled, nose is still a faucet, still can't sleep without meds, last night I stayed up till 4am to try to sleep without them. Physically feel ok, still no energy/motivation

Tenster try ordering it under the following names TEMGESIC or LEPETAN. The patent is available for generic duplication, and there have been quite a few posts in this bup/sub string from people getting it. Its just REALLY difficult, try ordering it overseas through your pharmacy, the different health care systems can work wonders on pricing.

Thanks Melissa.....morning to you too


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 26 2005 : 10:12:12 AM
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1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 26 2005 : 5:41:13 PM
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WARNING- Dr's are not always too careful and neither are pharmacists when prescribing/compounding, be careful this crap is really strong. Bup nasal spray should be given in .3mg doses per spray (any more and it really burns your nose anyway) That is equal to 1-.3mg amp per spray...From personal experience I always figured an 8mg subutex is equal to abou 6 .3mg injections of bup due to the way its absorbed, at least when I swiched back and forth from Buprenex to Subutex the 6 injections were equal to one 8mg pill broken in half taken 2x a day...But that is just my personal experience, just be on top of the coumpounding process. I know .3mg of a gram .003 of a GRAM doesnt seem like a lot, but just wait and see how potent it is when it is in nasal spray. If memory serves the r/x was written like this:

Buprenorphine 30x .3mg per dose nasal spray... then it could be broken down into 60 .15mg 1/2 an amp sprays 1 for each nostril.

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Edited by - Ratchett on Jul 26 2005 6:13:52 PM


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 26 2005 : 6:23:50 PM
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Day 14-
Still a little sluggish, but I am definitely feeling ok. Moved around like a human today. Just jumped around the board a bit, do people know the difference between Subutex/Buprenex/and Suboxone? I don't want to corrupt anyone, really..... But Damn If you are a junkie and you dont know what naloxone is...yikes



I mean after a 2,5,10 year whatever habit Bup really seems to make you feel clean, because you really dont get off, and if you take enough most of the cravings for your drug of choice seem to go away, and to top it all off a Dr. is prescribing it to you to make you better . There are some benefits, I don't want to bash it to bits. But I am really skeptical over long term +3 years maintenance. Its still a drug, and without it your body gets pissed. My expertise and experience tell me that if you are taking anything that will eventually put you into wd's, then it cant be all that good for you. Bottom line, if it is good enough to give you wd's, its got to be bad for you...eventually.



I only looked at pictures to Identify and Verify....Lots of fake crap out there, and Wow you should have seen some of those Fake oxy 80's, they were like green M&M's with the #80 painted on them...I mean yeah I was stoned....But COME ON...I think maybe they might have fooled a 6 year old.....And then there were the fake 40's that looked sooooooo real that I went into WD's for 1.25 days before I finally got suspicious... Real easy way to tell fakes...If the price is too good to be true....Caveat' Emptor

No I am sorry to be f-ing around, but being an addict puts you into some weird/unwanted/uncomfortable/ridiculous situations... And this is a site for recovery right?




Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 26 2005 : 11:44:49 PM
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Day 14
This has been my most productive day yet, I actually picked up 1 or two things and dragged a razor over my face for the first time in 13 days. I feel better than ok, and almost want to say good, but it has always been a little easier at night. My energy levels were a bit higher today, so maybe tomorrow I will more human.










Day 15 Hey
Feel ok so far... Didn#146;t get much sleep last night...All out of sleep meds, Ambien, cant gat a refill till Fri..
Still have that slight chill, otherwise physically I feel ok.
Mentally this is way more that I wanted to chew, how do you pretend to be sick for 2 F-ing weeks

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Edited by - Ratchett on Jul 27 2005 09:38:40 AM


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 27 2005 : 11:57:11 AM
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Day 15
I have the motivation to move around and complete simple tasks without forcing myself anymore. Days 9 - 13.5 felt like I fell into a vat of really thick syrup and I could barely move at times. I havent had that wave of exaustion in over 24 hours...Now I am just feeling kind of lazy, I still have a lot to do and I can't seem to get my butt moving... I have been up for a few hours and acomplished nothing....... Still have this weird very slight chill in my arms and chest, very minor but annoying nevertheless..

If I had to use a scale right now 0-being dead and 100 feeling perfect I would say I am around a 47. In this entire experience I never really dropped below 25, but to go from a 25 to a 47 in 15 days????


then again by day 15 of any other drug I was feeling at least up to 95 in two weeks.......


, I felt ok for two days, and then today I am moving in slow motion again. I always try to put my best foot forward and trudge along, but it gets so damn frustrating. I don#146;t care about feeling great... I just want to wake up one morning and know I don#146;t have to keep looking backwards, you know. That#146;s the weird part, its supposed to get a little better everyday, sometimes it does and sometimes I slide back like 3 days....And I didn#146;t cause it If I were using at least I would have an excuse you know, but I am trying to get/stay clean and frustration over duration is wearing my patience thin. I am staying strong, not crying for help...Just frustrated by this extended duration thing. But then again it will be a long cold day in hell before I EVER touch Bup/Sub again.

I hope people are reading these posts and it#146;s sinking in right now

Not to upset anybody, just to notify them of the truth, there are no shortcuts, either it will get you or your wallet..

Weird thing I have been sneezing like a madman since day 3 or 4, nose wont stop running, chills still come and go, and sleep...hah that#146;s something that dreams are made of for me tonight, I am outa Ambien till tomorrow.






Day 16
Still Feel OK but keep thinking I am going forward and then it steps 3 days back
Got about 1 hr of sleep this morning 8am to 9am,,, I can't log on late cause' the computer is in our bedroom, she is getting pissed enough at my laziness as is.

Here is an outsider's view of me:
My Dr. still thinks I am still in total renal/liver failure based on my symptoms.
My wife thinks I am so Manically Depressed that I should be Institutionalized..

I thought about something....When most of us hit a point in our lives and said I don't wan't to do H , pills whatever anymore to just function...And then we actually go for help.... Why did we switch over to something else...for years longer that we ever wanted? You guys Dont need to answer that...I know all the reasons, I convinced myself that it was OK to be using bup/sub for 7 years, I just wish I read this board sooner, I actually had no Idea what I was in for REGARDLESS OF TAPER, because I had run out of Bup a few times before at much highter doses and it felt equally as crappy...not bad.
Bup wd's dont make you feel Bad just crappy...and they seem to last forever.


Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 12:20:17 PM
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Do you guys remember those old stories about LSD giving you flashbacks like 10 or 20 years later because it stores up in your fat cells for years and then slowly breaks away? Well its been like 20 years since I did LSD and I still havent had any of those, but one thing I keep getting this suspicion over, that Bup (Buprenorphine) is like that, it is refined in sharp crystal form, why wouldnt it store in fat? Just blabbering, but there has to be some explanation for this 1/2 life/extended wd's fiasco. that last for months and months...where else is it hiding?


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 3:03:00 PM
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I have pretty much been whining the whole time about how I feel so I figured I would add a bit of dark humor to my past 15 days with these chills.

If you are going through wd's and have the chills, DON'T ever do the following:
Dont Eat Ice cream/malts/shakes (it takes like 2-3 hrs to recover from that)
Dont sit in your car and crank the heat till its 150, when you get out you will freeze
Dont sit in the bathroom with the hot water/shower running
Dont put so many blankets/clothes on your body that you will sweat
Dont go near the refrigerated/freezer section of the supermarket.
Dont go from extreme heat to a/c all the time
Dont go from a/c to extreme heat to a/c again.

Other than that you should do just fine....

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Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 28 2005 : 11:31:26 PM
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Well I do have three little kids for all the hugs/kisses I could ever possibly handle right now, not to mention one of them always bumps/punches/pushes/hits one of my plates (in whats left of my clavicle/collarbone) Its funny the pain and stiffness been for the most part a constant, I thought for sure after hopping off Buprenorphine the pain would get worse, actually its a little more manageable when sober, pain that is...Weird huh?
Oh I forgot something good for a change about quitting...I had an extra $200 in my wallet this week???? How did that get there?????




Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 11:41:55 AM
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Day 17
Feel slightly motivated, going to force myself outside today and get some things done. My whole world has been put on hold for so long, When you are using you are envious at all the straight people who have their lives together........
And when you are wd'ing you are just envious at the dog, knowing that he feels better than you do.... I mean physically I feel ok, still have slight chills, runny nose. sneezing constantly, still cant sleep without meds, and my motivation is still way lower than I expected. Things are progressing so slowly now that I am unsure whether I am feeling better or just getting use to feeling crappy all the time.

Still staying strong, no desire to use, but very very frustrated........


Ratch



Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 2:52:24 PM
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There is always going to be worse case scenario, but when it starts happening to you the blinders kinda go on and you only start to see in one direction.

1) got to get/keep high
2) Why cant my life be normal, why do I have to have all these problems $$/relationships/etc....
3) I know I need to stop but at this particular time in my life it would be too hard...work/family probs/money probs.....EXCUSES

that pretty much summed up MY last 20 years....... sound familiar???

See I never thought of myself always having a drug problem at first with Bup/Sub...
I thought I was treating the drug problem, thought it was helping me emotionally, and financially (cause it is a lot cheaper than street drugs)...

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we deceive......ourselves.........

Still hangin',draggin', and lying about,

Ratch
PS..I still havent gotten out of the house yet...thought about it really hard for the past 3 hrs but have gone nowhere.



Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 7:42:13 PM
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Day 17
Ok I finally got out of the house at it wasn#146;t really that bad..
I finally feel somewhere between ok and good....But with Bup as I have learned the hard way, how I feel right now means nothing...because in 5 min. I could be feeling all drained again. I am sure I have said this before, but I am a pretty upbeat person and I dont even know what depression feels like ....I can still laugh, joke, smile, yap on the phone....I just dont/cant want to move or do anything for spurts of time 3 to 6 hrs, sometimes all day.


Ratchett
Sr.Member



Being clean/sober is kind of a high in itself... a proud of yourself kinda thing
which for me is really rare,




Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 29 2005 : 9:36:39 PM
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Actually I am feeling pretty good, I have not felt better in like 16 days. My wife thought I was feeling so good she actually accused me of being high again. I looked her dead in the eyes for a second and then I just burst out laughing. And then she just said , now I know you are on something ... then I said, would you like to drive to the hospital right now and we can get a full toxicology screen? , I will be glad to oblige.......How about we just go to the pharm for one of those mail in tests? Finally she mellowed out and believed me.

Now she thinks I am Bi-Polar ....Really low lows,,,and really high highs'

I mean I know I am in a unusual situation with my spouse, but she is convinced the buprenorphine is just as bad as any street drug, and I am considered using when I was on it..... due to the fact that I would step from one drug to the next while on it didn#146;t make my argument for Bup any stronger, the reason I did do a lot of stepping was all my surgery and recovery.... By the way I just found out I am going to have to have another surgery. They have to unscrew all my plates and file down the edges of the bone fragments the entire length of my collarbone all 17 fragments...(yeah I know they say I gave the word shattered a whole new meaning) because it turns out rather than fusing together, the bones. they all healed independently like a bunch of eggs...
Boy recovery from that without pain meds is going to be a real picnic.....
Does anyone know the actual human tolerance for pain? Are there any decent pain meds that are Non-opiate that actually work.. I did NOT go through 17+ days of mild yet annoying torture to find out due to circumstance That I must start taking Morphine, dilodid, Demerol, oxy's again because every time I wake up in recovery that#146;s all they seem to pump into me...
I mean I can put off the surgery for a while, however I would like some additional use of my left arm eventually.

Its never easy is it? If I am clean and only go through the surgery with the pain meds for recovery 1-2 days only, will my body immediately get re-addicted and will I have to go through wd's again? Since my tolerances are still really high to meds will that also be a factor? oxy 320 a day, hydr 600+ a day, Are there surgery alternatives for sober addicts? Just wondering? By the way I went through all my previous surgeries using low doses of Buprenex/Subutex 12 hrs prior without a problem... NOT SUBOXONE......

Hey thanks again..




Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 30 2005 : 11:43:48 AM
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Day 18 yesterday was a good day once I got going, today is starting out a bit slower.
I will definitely wait a bit, I can barely get moving right now, trying to bite down and deal with that kind of recovery is ridiculous in my shape..



Thanks Seven,
its just been a struggle looking for energy.........the way I felt yesterday was a ray of hope, that soon things will be good...


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 30 2005 : 5:56:17 PM
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Day 18Well its almost 6pm and I have yet to leave the bedroom. Physically feel pretty Ok, but I cant seem to move around, its not as bad as last week, but its not all that great either.


I actually go outside every 30 min for a smoke, but it doesnt make me feel any better...
Its NOT a mind thing, I am not making beleive I am lazy, I really feel around 90 years old, I walk around the house with a shawl draped over my shoulders, granted the house is always kept pretty cool, btwn 71 @ 73 because when I was using I got my wife & kids use to living in cold all the time, Now that I am straight I am paying the price for it in two ways...$250 electric bills and constant chills...hey that was a rhyme



1348 Posts
Posted - Jul 31 2005 : 2:54:08 PM
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Day 19
Still dont feel all that energetic, did force myself out of the house today and all I wanted to do way lie down in my bed.

I have been jumping around the board again, and its really scary.... Do people realize that this stuff gives the term drying-out a whole new meaning? I know I have been whining about it since day 6, but hands down its sooooo long and frustrating, I have 3 wild little kids and the patience of a saint.... but 19+++ days to dry out of ANyTHING is about 15 days too long, if tommorow I felt great, I would still say its just been way way too long....Use Bup for 6 to 10 days during detox....and get off.....Makes a crappy maintenance drug Yes you think you feel alright, but damn..... I would not wish this long slow torture on my worst enemy...............



I never felt any discomfort till I stopped for about 48hrs completely

A long slow taper did not do a thing to releive my symptoms, because I ran out quite a few times in the past and the symptoms were exactly the same on a much higher dose..... Your body is going to crave this stuff once it stops regardless of how low a dose you get your body used to...

By the way it wasnt that it was such bad wd's....They just lasted,,,are still lasting for so long.. I don't think anyone is going to get an easy ride with this stuff...

The only taper that is going to work is if you are using Bup for less than 10 days...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
, Buprenorphine Injectable or sublingual might be a ok step in recovery but a SHORT step. If you are on it for too long all the reasons you were using seem to slowly start to come back. At first(during the first 1-2 mos) Bup used to give me energy, and make me feel like I was straight.. but as time wore on it sucked away all my energy, actually it stole from me some pretty precious memories as well. I can barely recall the two births of my three children (I have twins). Actually all my memories are just photographs, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt my senses have definitely become sharper since quitting. I have noticed the following changes in myself....

1) when I drive down roads that I travel almost everyday I am now noticing houses, lakes, and distance that I never noticed before.
2) Food tastes a little more specific.
3) I can feel myself getting hungry for the first time in like 10 years.(I lost the ability to feel hungry/almost full while on Bup. I could still feel stuffed, but that was it.
4) I now Stare into my children#146;s eyes when they talk to me, and I notice every feature on their little faces...Before I would just glance at them for a second to deal with them.
5) My mathematical skills have once again re-appeared, and I can estimate numbers with ease once again.
6) I personally feel better about myself, and I have some pride in my 20 day sobriety.

I know this stuff might not seem like much, especially if you are still using, but after 7 years on bup. I felt like everyday was a foggy dream, I mean I definitely had more energy than I do right now, but at the time it wasn#146;t nearly enough. I was always dosing more bup. to feel better....And IT NEVER WORKED

One thing I know for sure, these chills I still have and the loss of energy are my nerves and body just starting to re-wire itself again for natural stimulation, endorphins stims. And if it takes a really long time to re-wire it means that some pathways were really disconnected but good. I really hope they do some long term studies on Buprenorphine because this stuff is really strong if it f's you up for this long to get off of it, granted I was a very long term user... But from what I have read on other posts, anybody that stays on this stuff longer than 14/21 days gets addicted physically and no amount of low tapering is going to really make much of a difference. I am not here to scare anyone, these are just my own experiences, and the experiences of two other long term users whom I am close with, and now that I have corresponded and compared experiences with Greeyez.. I am not crazy, Bup does a real number on you long term, trust me... I also used to think it was the greatest thing since sliced bread........... Just like the first time I got high.............................





Day 20Thanks I do feel a bit better, not close to good, but better. I have a tiny bit more energy, still have the slight chills that no amount of clothing or blankets can take away, I do get out as often as possible, I have been venturing out of the bedroom more and more, you can only play sick for so long Its just been really tough and slow, and at the rate it appears to be improving your 60 to 90 day estimate for bup recovery sounds about right. If I hadn#146;t cut off all my drug channels for the most part I probably would have used bup again to make this nightmare stop. But, I am sticking to my guns, I wanted to be clean 7 years ago Bup just put the agony on hold, then intensified it, then tortured me...yes it was my own fault I just wish I knew NOW what I thought I knew 7 years ago, I know I would have been a lot better off..






I am so glad that you read my posts and have only been on it for a short time, its really not worth it..the feeling of being straight again is so much more powerful that any good feelings I thought Bup/sub ever gave me. I hope you have an easier time of it and watch that Nalaxone (the stuff in the orange pill) 8mg , I was warned to get off of nalaxone, but then again I cant imagine it being much worse in terms of time either. You jumped off at 15 days and still had pretty bad wd's? Wow I thought as long as you got off by then you werent yet addicted to it .
I wish you luck, and I can just tell that you are not going to be one of these long term user horror stories that starts around year 3 and just goes downhill fast from there. I guess we can only fool our bodies for so long before every reason we stated using for just seems to resurface.

I wish you all the best in a speedy recovery.

Ratch


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 01 2005 : 11:19:18 AM
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Bit of interesting Info.

Did you know that Burenorphine and Naloxone are made from the EXACT same part of the opium plant? Yes they are both processed from Thebaine and converted into a variety of substances including oxycodone, oxymorphone, nalbuphine, naloxone, naltrexone, and Buprenorphine.




I am not trying to Scare anybody, most legit detox clinics/centers use bup for very short term so patients don#146;t experience severe wd's. It is just that I am talking from experience. I mean you, or somebody you love made the decision to quit using right? Then why start using something else long term when its not necessary. If I knew I could do a 6-10 day detox/taper when I was first given this drug my entire life would have been a lot different. Yes its a great feeling to have mild to no wd's at all when switching over to bup/sub, but come on I have dried/been strung out so many times before and my body always had to rewire itself for emotion/temperature/temperament/sexual desire/energy/motivation...It just seemed it came back a whole lot quicker wd#146;ing on H,oxy,hyd,perc,darv...even though more physically severe I was feeling pretty decent after going cold turkey on my MMT' after 3 weeks, (yes I did have xanax and clonopin patches)but improvement was measured daily, not by the week. And I am not even going on about the long term effects...just the long gentle slow slow way my body is beginning to heal.

Bottom line..(to sum up my babbling)
When we determine we have a problem and we want to get clean (as in no more using)
Why should we keep putting something into our bodies for a specific length of time when it#146;s really not necessary, and it just prolongs our real sensations and feelings?

As if I am one to talk right? Well guess what? I have felt/seen personally what this stuff does to/for you....its called REPLACEMENT THERAPY

I don#146;t mean to come here and start bashing anybody's treatment, even if I am dead wrong, but there is just not enough data out there yet to support any kind of maintenance therapy with this drug, and if your Dr is prescribing it to you they can be the greatest guy/gal in the world (my Dr was a great guy) but they are only charging you or your insurance by the office visit... If I am lying, ask them to write you a 90 day script or a multiple refill RX and see what they say, like they do for antidepressants (for true maint drugs)... bet they want you back in the office for another visit within 3 to 6 weeks. I know I sound cynical, and I know I am not feeling all that hot, but one thing I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt... They are there to make money, that is their job...
Ahhh screw it I could go on and on and on...
I am just making this stuff up because I am so hurt and angry.....NOT... I am just warning people that were lied to like myself, no long slow taper is going to save you If you have been continuously feeding your system any addictive drug, your body gets used to it, and when you stop...your body revolts. Granted on higher levels it might revolt a bit more, but a revolt is a revolt and you are going to feel it for a pre determined amount of time regardless.

I really appreciate your support, but If I can #147;scare#148; a newbie into using bup for a shorter amount of time and they truly clean up their life sooner then I really feel I have done something good, because for the past 20 years I never knew how to feel good because I was high.



But I am just an addict like everybody else, the only advantage I have Is I have some experience, I have read all that I can, I have checked out the bup course for dr's and personally...its riduculous.. No real data at all, where you are (UK) they have been using buprenex Inj. and sub for quite a while longer than here in the U.S., I have tryed to gain some access to UK bup info with little to no luck.

In your case if you know you are done with H, dont get High anynore with it and you are just fed up to the core, your cravings are in total check, you dont tempt yourself with what if situations about getting high every other hour, and your mind just clicks and says Thats f-ing it and I know I can stop this crap Then taper down.
If you are wavering and on the edge and think the onlk thing that can make this nightmare end is by using than by all means stay on the bup/meth, its a lot better than a street drug with regards to personal safety and purity and $$$$,, (My keyboard doesnt have the little L for quid) But you get the idea. If you can make the crossover to bup from md, try to make it a short one. However, if you need to stay on it longer, than by all means do so, just dont STAY on it for too long, you are just lying to your body, and eventually it WILL catch on and start to revolt (takes years) but why be on anything for years if your goal is to be clean?

I hope I helped a bit, 4mg for initial md wd's sounds awfully low, but I know nothing about your Md history, what other drugs you are takling, etc...

I hope I helped a bit.

Ratch



1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 02 2005 : 09:57:15 AM
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Today is Day 21


I feel ok, a constant humming in my head/ears, still big lack of energy motivation, (YES I am getting out), When I walk my feet are constantly dragging ( I am always tripping over them, and I never did in the past), I still have sneezing fits 4 to 6 sneezes in a row, my nose is still runny all the time, (no sprays or cold meds seem to stop it), And I still have chills in both my arms and chest, and I got like a wink of sleep last night 1hr on 30mg of ambien.

HOWEVER- I do feel better, its just taking so very long, its very hard to play sick for this long and not be able to funtion as a complete human being, I can get almost anything done but it takes quite an effort still, not nearly as bad as it was at day 12 I think, maybe I am either getting used to this, or its slowly getting better. I am keeping this log so specific so if somebody else ever wants to wd/detox from bup/sub they can compare what I am going through and not freak out and use after 10/20 days because the progress is so very slow for a worst case scenario long term user. I am posting to help myself,and others compare notes.

I honestly love and appreciate everybodys support and honesty. I know what its like being on Bup, you dont need to defend it, I did enough defending/rationalizing for 6/7 years. Now I think its time for a little reality/truth.


Has ANYONE tapered, or withdrawn after long-term use and had a (relativly) SHORT? recovery time????



Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 02 2005 : 10:20:24 AM
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Oh please let it be so....
I would LOVE to be a worst case scenario but I have a feeling I am a little better off then most, my bup wd's were never so bad at their worst that I even gave in for a second. But please has ANYBODY jumped off this stuff after like just using it for 30 days and done any better?



Ambien has been a lifesaver even at day 21 I am still buzzing/humming all night long.
Valium or Xanax would be a great help.
Clonazepam ( Klonopin ) will help a wee bit days 3-7 (the really bad days) THATS IT its a BEnzo, addictive/bad (they make you feel good so be careful,,good=bad with detox


Day 21
I still have a constant ringing in my ears, a humming/ fluid thing going on in my head.
( I do not have allergies of any kind btw)
I have to sit/lay down all the time.
I always feel drained. Its a improvement over last week, but not by much.




Right now I am taking...
Asprin/tylenol/advil/b-12 2000mg/b-12/200 mg inj/lysine/calcium-magnesium/multivitamin...

I am sure there is more, I just wake up, pour out all the pills and spend about 15 min swallowing it all....I dont take asprin/tyl/advil at the same time or in lg doses. I go to GNC all the time for that detox crap and all kinds of other crap..nothing works..but time...


Ratchett
Sr.Member


1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 03 2005 : 7:43:05 PM
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Day 22
Today the chills have been really really mild, almost have to concentrate on them to even feel them, the buzzing humming in my head is quieting a bit, physically I feel good. There I said it finally However....... Fatigue, motivation,patience,energy levels are still really low... they seem to be improving at a weekly rate instead of a daily one. And today for the first time I actually felt heat from the sun warming my body when I was outside Its kinda' weird..but I couldnt feel it on me yesterday (Yesterday was cloudy you idiot ) Hey, I dont remember...But I did feel it today

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Day 23
Physically I think the worst is behind be, But this fatigue, lack of motivation is so not who I am, I HATE BEING LAZY, and I am really getting frustrated. Yes I move around/walk/drive/take vitamins/drink water..... Nothing I have tried seems to pick/perk me up. My wife is totally and utterly fed up with me, when will I just be able to have the motivation to clean up? Help with the kids? Be productive physically?

Again, this is not a cry for help, I am not going to go back, I have gone too far...
But when do you just get motivation back? Screw exhaustion and fatigue, I just want motivation, everything else I can deal with..to be able to do a task without this how can I even think about that right now.



Posted - Aug 05 2005 : 4:21:16 PM
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Day 24
Took a walk with my 4 year old son today, about 1.5 miles. My motivation fatigue seem to hit me more in the afternoon than the morning, I am slowly getting enough motivation/energy to actually push myself to do things more frequently, chills have been replaced by a slight tingling in arms and chest, buzzing in ears is quieting down a bit. And I think I am past the halfway point where I feel better than worse overall. Sleep on my own is still impossible.



Yes by the way I am a big cynic and scientist myself and during the last 3+ weeks I have dumped and drank every over the counter pill, chemical, and concoction you could imagine...nothing worked but time. The second biggest factor has been the support of everybody posting here. From what I understand this is going to take a while, but it is at a point where I no longer dread another day of this...
For a quick visual on the walk with my son, I actually drove him to a state park about 5 miles away, and we walked a short nature trail through the woods, about 1.5 miles to be exact. My wife was blown away that I actually suggested doing it since I NEVER in the past took it upon myself to do any outdoor activities with my kids before unless I was forced of course...

I am still quite far away from feeling perfectly normal, forget about great or energetic. And as of right now I am once again hiding in my room, but the burst of energy/motivation to do a walk in the woods with my son is proof positive that there will be many better days ahead. By the way when I hit that magic number of how many days it took to just feel human/complete again, you all will be the first to know..(after me of course)




I have been so very mad at this fatigue, downright furious at it I fight it with every fibre of my being..It just take energy to fight and that is slowly increasing. I never really was depressed in a sense of sadness or dark thoughts but if depressed is really sluggish and feels like I just got over a marathon..then maybe it is depression..but I am feeling a bit chipper over this 23 day clean thing, its been a really long time I have been straight for this long, and I am really not bummed or sad about anything? So can it still be depression? I am truly asking.. My wife thinks for the last 3.5 weeks I have been clinically depressed but she does not have a clue what I have been going through, suspicions yes, but no idea its still been bup after 7 years. Ant ideas when natural sleep comes back? I am really sick of taking another pill to sleep..


Posted - Aug 06 2005 : 3:59:51 PM
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Day 25
Things are getting a bit easier to acomplish, physically I feel ok/good, the symptoms are now nothing more than a mild cold. At this point I would feel comfortable going back to work, because I can push myself pretty easily now, and the thought of doing anything physical is not met by total exaustion...all the time.


.You know what? I really hope that the shorter you are on it the easier it is to get over it, but with all opiates, once your body gets used to it (addicted) its still a rule of thumb basic recovery timeline.(yes there are always exceptions) After 3 weeks of MMT when people stop they claim 30+ days of wd's, why should Bup/sub be the exception? I think once your brain is told chemically this is how its going to be, and it accepts it, it pretty much takes as long as it take to re=write the program. I just know that afer using bup for 30+ days (less than 3 mos total) a few people tried to jump off and by days 10-20 they had to go back so they could work again.



Day 26-
Feel like I slid back about to 4 days ago, having a really hard time pushing myself.
I havent taken ultram since day 6, and you are right, I think it made things worse.
Currently I am just taking Advil and vitamins. About every 4 to 6 days this happens where it all seems to go backwards, hopefully tommorow will be better.


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1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 08 2005 : 10:07:01 AM
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Day 27-This morning hasn't been too bad, physically I feel good. So far motivation/fatigue are at acceptable levels so I can move around without wanting to sit/lay down all the time.
BTW- caffeine doesn#146;t work at all.


- Aug 08 2005 : 7:32:43 PM
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I just read a post about getting blurred vision after quitting bup. I was feeling so crappy that I really never had time to notice that one wd symptom, but something REALLY weird did happen to my vision.......It got better. For the past 5 years after reading for a while my reading vision would get a bit blurry and I could never focus, it got worse and worse to a point where I would have to throw on a cheap pair of reading glasses to read any small print, I just chalked it up to getting older. I could NEVER read addresses out of a phone book, well guess what? Just today I realized I can read small print again I haven't tried reading extensively yet, but that's pretty cool huh? By the way, I have never worn glasses/lenses except to read small print in the last 2/3 years. I just hope its not some weird fluke where I go from being very slightly far-sighted to short.


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1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 11 2005 : 3:42:37 PM
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Day 30-
Not too much has really changed, Physically I have a fuzzy headache , other than that I am pretty Ok physically. However the fatigue, lack of energy, lack of motivation, is always there, sometimes better/sometimes worse, never does it disappear. Sleep is still real tough. If feeling just plain normal is my goal, I am at a 57 out of 100...
This is still really not too pleasant at all.



The mental concentration right now to read a book or play a video game ,watch any movies, sex..etc. Is almost impossible, right now I mean I feel OK but I am still not comfortable in my own mind/skin. I did try to read, but only got through a number of pages (without glasses).

Very strange how this is going, I get a little bit of energy to do a task, like dishes, or wash the dog, and then halfway through I am like what am I doing ? and I have to stop, yes I rinsed off the dog. Some days I feel like .5 to 1% better and then some days I feel like it all slides backwards. To feel normal in my book is the ability to accomplish tasks because you want to or have to... without having to muster up the energy just to get off my butt to stand up to stare at a pile of laundry, and then sit down 2 min later and say I will deal with it when I am better. One of the main reasons I quit bup. was I had Class A procrastination, this is like AAAAA++++++ rated Procrastination. The worst thing is we all know just how to make it all go away, I just happened to swallow my key, and I will not allow myself to go back, came too far, but ANYONE that has ever re-lapsed off bup has nothing to be upset about, I swear I would take 10 days off oxy/hydro wd's over this any day. This fatigue/exhaustion/depression is like tearing me up, take a really hyper upbeat person and rip them of their energy, is like taking away a rich man/woman#146;s' money......

Please believe me, I know everybody knows how I feel about bup/sub... I am not posting this to scare anyone, these are my honest feelings, and I promise there will be a day when I post I am great #133;. nobody wants that day more than me, except my family.


Aug 13 2005 : 3:45:59 PM
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Day 32-
Well if my previous post on the 11th at 5:55 appeared to be a cry, it wasn't. I am determined to stick it out. I guess I wasn't specific enough. Long term bup/sub use wd's have an additional unpleasant effect called PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) which means all of a sudden you just feel like crap all over again usually days 14/30, and 60 I think.(Thanks for the heads up on PAWS Greeneyez wherever you are)

Physically, injuries aside I am perfect.. They have has me under the microscope due to my multiple trauma, so this is all 110% wd related. I have just re-wired my brain for so long its going to take a hell of a long time to find its way back, it does get a little tiny bit better everyday.

As far as apologetic goes, I have been just too damn exhausted to fight against these bup for life people, so I have been keeping it on the neutral side of things, #147;in my opinion, my feelings are, etc... The truth is you went on bup to get off drugs, why keep staying on them? Yes it seems to work at first, even for a couple of years, but it WILL get you eventually, look how damn brilliant I was. Plus I really dont want to mess with anybodys' recovery no matter how warped I find/know it is.

By the way, I am all for short term bup/sub use for detox only, If Maint drugs are so great, why are so many MMT people here?

Oh yeah.. I am starting to get off my butt and get more things done everyday, energy levels are improving, just really slowly..

- Aug 15 2005 : 11:37:14 AM
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Day 34-Things are still improving at a snails#146; pace, chronic fatigue has been replaced by periodic waves of exhaustion (that's a good thing). At first glance it appears I was stuck in a rut because like everybody warned me, I was gauging my recovery on a daily basis. This is like a weekly process, improvement over last week are about 5% to 10%, which is a lot considering there were times I could not do a thing, now I can do almost anything, it just takes preparation and motivation on my part which now comes a little (20%) easier. I think the 60 to 90 day time frame given me by some former bup/sub users seems dead on accurate, as far as feeling somewhat normal . It is a long and frustrating process that I claim 99% responsibility for, 1% is blamed on the Dr#146;s for lying to me about long term effects and the alleged #147;minor wd#146;s#148; that I would go through even after being on bup/sub for years.

The worst thing about this whole situation has been the fact that currently I am physically going through all the reasons I decided to quit bup. to begin with. Meaning, I stopped using bup. because I felt like I was living in a fog, I had no energy, no motivation, I procrastinated everything, fatigue, etc.. Now all those symptoms have become worse, however, at least now they are improving. While on bup., it continued to get worse. I would guess that in about 30 more days I will be caught up, meaning I should feel about the same amount of difficulty as if I was using, after that, it should be all uphill.

To gain energy and motivation again, the ability to be the person I once was almost a decade ago is my ultimate goal#133;#133;..Wow I just said #147;goal#148;, that is also something I have not had the ability to set or keep in a really long time, or priorities#133;.. Yes, things are getting better, just in a backwards/sideways kind of way.




1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 9:33:12 PM
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Wow I really have to start looking in between the lines when I type, Because in all honesty I have NEVER been tempted to use. I have like 200 ultram lying around, I am sure I could find at least 80mg of suboxone, if I looked for it. And I had a syringe filled with bup in case of emergency untill like day 10 or so. NO I wanted to quit using for so long, I didnt get high anymore, I was beginning to feel like crap while using,oxy & bup. I mean I am a weird bird, I just set my mind to do something and I almost never look back, I say almost because I set myself to finally quit smoking after 20 years..and I did quit for 5 years, but then I started chewing tobacco and I was so disgusted with that, that I made a conscious decision to start smoking again so I could quit the chew , anyhow I have been smoking for about a year now, and I am about to stop permanently as soon as this wd' crap is behind me. I figured I lived the past 20 years destroying my body, why don't I live the next 20 trying to improve it? And then after that I will spend the next 20 years driving a giant car in the left lane with my left turn signal permanently on (going 52mph of course). As soon as I get the energy, I will clean the whole house and chuck everything, but why would I want to take a drug that doesnt get me high, and then will just eventually will bring me down all over again? Its like looking all over my house for a gun just to shoot off my own foot..I mean yeah I don't feel too peppy and I still feel very weird in my own skin, can't sleep, and I have the energy of a sloth, but you know what? I will take it over getting high again, but hey, nobody is perfect, and disaster could strike tommorow, and I could fall again. But for today I have it set in stone..

-Posted - Aug 15 2005 : 10:05:43 PM
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Footnote to above post:
Why would I want to do bup again anyways? What reason could I possibly have? I feel straighter now than I ever felt before, and at the rate my energy levels are improving in another 30 days or so I should have more energy now, then when I was on bup. Like I have said before, I could understand the frustration of this extended wd's and PAWS and all the other nasty stuff, and it REALLY SUCKS after 34 days, but I am not going through 34 days to hit a reset button . This is all about getting use to being straight I guess, maybe I do feel normal already and its my brain that just has to get used to it. I find that the sun is way too bright, actually so are lamps, sounds are louder, I can definately smell and see better, so these are the obvious changes, some good some bad, but I guess I will just get used to it all again. The human body is pretty amazing at adapting to change, just wish it were a little quicker. If I dont dwell on it there are actually periods of time that I forget I am even still wd'ing or having paws at all.

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- Aug 16 2005 : 3:42:38 PM
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Day-35

I also need complete darkness as well as complete silence to go to sleep. Especially in my current state. If I am really tired I might pass out if wife leaves the tv on but I usually just wait untill she falls asleep and I shut it off, then I can sleep.

Today has been one of those step back days yet again, the past 2-3 days were both pretty decent too, at least when I slide back now its not nearly as bad as before.
The worst thing is I have to go out and do some traveling for the next two weeks for my job and deal with actual humans. I have been dreading this trip for the past 35 days and I was actually sure I would be fine by now. I mean I know I will handle everything ok but I will have to push myself through airports and meetings in a bunch of different states (9) for the next 10 days, oh and did I mention 1500 miles of driving in 2 days...grrrrrrrrrr. Funny thing is any other time in my life I would drive almost 1000 miles a day and not even think about it, now I am dreading it.
On the positive side, when I get back at least I will have better news to report, and if that magic day of normal hits me while I am away I will take this URL just in case to report in.


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1348 Posts
Posted - Aug 16 2005 : 7:19:54 PM
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I have just spent a few minutes jumping around the board, there are quite a few posts from people that should have their Dr's shot and then quartered, or vice versa...I didnt type a thing to them BTW.. The incredible ignorance on the part of the medical community is down-right scary, I myself am a victim of a few class A moron Dr's.. The dosing, the conversion rates, the taper its all SO SCARY Don't these Dr's realize HOW STRONG THIS STUFF IS? Forget about my BS with the long term stuff, how about keeping a patient at wicked high doses? (OVER 16mg a day...thats equal to like 21amps a day ) btw... Yes its really hard to OD on Bup,,but NEVER on my worst day of being a abusive pig did I ever do 21amps a day.... I think 14 was my worst... And I was nodding out, and got that weird Bup headache (fluid in the head thing) that lasted into the next day, There is just so much ignorance on all sides, This is the planet Earth right? Why cant just ONE decent Dr. write a real paper on this stuff and publish it in a med journal so all these Dr' clowns have at least a tidbit of correct dosing/tapering info before blindly rx'ing it to people...


Day 42
Things have been a little bit better. The energy/fatigue is still my biggest concern. After like 6 days I had to cut my trip short because I was pushing myself way too hard. After about 2 hrs of these bursts of slight energy I find myself having to sit down for about a 1/2 hour untill I am motivated enough to get back up again. I still feel slightly weird in my own skin, but I guess feeling straight is something that takes a while to get used to. My cravings to use are practically nil at this point because I have come too far. Hope everyone is good out there.
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby ForJJ821 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:23 am

Thanks for this

Somewhere in between you said something and I've been crying ever since.. you said "You've never met your kids sober" I have a 6 month old son and I've been on bup the entire time, I just want to be clean, I just want to be off this! I want to look at my son and see him, remember all of these times, my brain feels so foggy and although I love him more than anything in the world I know I am not 100% me at all...Today is my day 1 so I'm not going through any withdrawals yet, I just hope that when I do start withdrawaling I'll remember why I'm doing this and why I need to stay off of it.
Suboxone free since March 6, 2011 !!

Wish me luck!
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby stopthepain » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:45 am

This is a good info!
I was on Heroin and Methadone for 12+ years. Last year I got on to suboxone and have never felt good, but I have pushed thru and walked down because I like you want off everything for good! I have the drive and have done fantastic considering the hell that one goes thru. The thing I am most confused about is that I was doing fine even feeling really good until I got down to crumbs a day. The I got a sinus infection and what felt like an ear infection and a REALLY bad flu. It's been 36 days since the onset of feeling really bad. At first I thought it was withdrawl because after going to the doc several times they say that I have a viral infection and it will pass on it's own, but it's been 36 days like I said. Then I read your post and could relate BIG TIME! I have felt the terrible chronic fatigue, the inability to answer the phone, or interact with my kids etc.....
Point is that I don't know if I'm in withdrawl or if I'm just sick from something else. If I were in withdrawl......couldn't I take more suboxone and feel better? Cause I've tried that and it makes me feel worse. I don't know! Just feeling TERRIBLE all around! Alright, well......
I just wanted to let you know that your post is great and hopefully it will be of help to those young ones out there that think they know what they are getting themselves into!!!
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby Sam Bailey (#67) » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:56 am

I am with you. its been four months for me and I feel like shit. I wish I would of found this before I got on this shit.

I am hopeing it gets better fast for fuck it. I will get back on something but wont be sub. At least if I am gonna remain a doper I am gonna be on something I enjoy. Dont think I could ever put a needle in my arm but surely can swollow a few pills. funny how a tiny pill can make like so grand. If I knew what would happen I would of just dealt with my pain years ago. I thought sub was the shit for about three years. Now.. christ give me back my oxycontins. Let me get on that midnight express to fla and hit a few clinics. All you need is a MRI showing little back problems. BAM all the dope you want.

Gonno give this one more month to feel better... but fuck if I can live like this.l
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby doperdog » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:46 am

Sam Bailey (#67) wrote:I am with you. its been four months for me and I feel like shit. I wish I would of found this before I got on this shit.

I am hopeing it gets better fast for fuck it. I will get back on something but wont be sub. At least if I am gonna remain a doper I am gonna be on something I enjoy. Dont think I could ever put a needle in my arm but surely can swollow a few pills. funny how a tiny pill can make like so grand. If I knew what would happen I would of just dealt with my pain years ago. I thought sub was the shit for about three years. Now.. christ give me back my oxycontins. Let me get on that midnight express to fla and hit a few clinics. All you need is a MRI showing little back problems. BAM all the dope you want.

Gonno give this one more month to feel better... but fuck if I can live like this.l


If you are planning to go back to drugs, why are you here? Hopefully, you are just spouting off in an isolated bad moment. In any case, nobody needs to be told that drugs can make us feel good, or how to score. If you want help staying clean, fine. If you want to glorify drug use, or tell people how to score TAKE IT ON THE ROAD! There are many other sites where that's the norm, but this isn't one of them.
“Just cause you got the monkey off your back doesn't mean the circus has left town.” - George Carlin
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Coming off subozxone- expediting the process

Postby SubsRBad » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:48 pm

Hey-

I Have been on Subnoxone for 1.5 years- the first year I was on 3 8mg tablets- then went to 1- for the last 6 months or so. I had no idea what I was getting into. I am trying to get off it completely. It's been a battle to say the least. Ok- so we all know that opiates attach to the mu receptors. We also know that bupenorphine pushes the opiates off the mu receptors, and then stays there for a very long time- I beleive thats why we have months of withdrawel symptoms after years of use. Ok- so I know that nalexone is used for an OD- the reason its used is bc it has a higher affinity then any other known chemical for the mu receptors. So- heres my theory- inject some amount of nalexone- possible three injects durring one week- im still putting this idea together. Anyway- i wanted some feedback- Basically what were all seeing here is this drug takes months to seep out of our body- im trying to find a way to expedite it out- thanks-
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby SoCal » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:23 pm

GREAT POST!!!,,thanks for putting the effort into it,,aNd will hopefully be of help to people!,,THANKS!
Ive been on sub for 7yrs also and decided to just stay thAt way,,but today things have changed for me,,and actually
goin to try and get of 50 8mg subs,,then the klonopin!,,gonna be hell i know,,but info and help from people here will help and i thaNK everyone in advance.
Im 55,,but a freAkin die haRD !! :deadhorse: ,,hell,,i may haVE another 50 left in me. Why the decision today?,,Long story,,but for the first time i feel i can really do it.,,On 4mgs,now,,keep meds in bank lock box,,out of site out of mind..Maybe my idea may be a good one for others. Banks only about a mile away and i get excercise to boot!,,Just aN idea,,and if we all think of others (ideas), we can maybe help each other.
Kinda wiewrd me and ratch both have 7 yrs,,but that helps me just knowin he could do it,,so maybe a pussy like me can too!! :thumbup:
TT
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby Sub zero » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:54 am

Whew...I just found this and decided to glance over it. Halfway through I wimped out and had to hit the back button...as it started bringing back unpleasant memories of my own WD's and I could actually "feel" the things Ratch was describing :sick: . This post should be required reading for anyone before they decide to jump off Sub. I really feel sorry for anyone who finds themself on the wrong side of the fence and must begin this process. At least by reading Ratch's WD diary, they will know exactly what to expect and exactly how long it's gonna last.
If I could go back and do it all over again...I wouldn't

Methadone free since 8/15/2010...Sub free since 9/28/10
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby ratch » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:20 pm

Hopefully a warning for some..and comfort for others knowing that they arent going fucking crazy when the sub wd's last 30+++ days, and the paws can go on for 6 months or more. When I jumped 6 years ago, not many people had gotten off sub long term.. I started in 1998 with buprenex (off-label), and switched to sub in 2003/04?? But it was crazy, one member at the site I used to belong to, secretly PM'ed me that it can last up to a year... not very comforting news, but at least I knew I was not alone. Thats why I have done this for so long (warned others) because no Dr, or medical site (or Suboxone site) will tell people the truth. Sub has its place, for EXTREME cases or chronic relapsers.. But most people here should have never been put on sub.
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby Fred » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:45 pm

no comfort for me but ANYONE pls answer. I ask a few times but I broke the rules here and was deleted.
If I was on sub for 6 weeks, then jumped off (awlful wd) and on H for a while, and I am talking weeks not months that I could try the bupe for less then two weeks and not get addicted. I have to do something quick to save my marriage. My wife has really stood by me the last 6 yrs. I was clean for 5 yrs but then had a car accident and ended being medivac to the states and spent some time in hospital. I got readdicted while there and didn't wean down before I was released. BAD MISTAKE. I came home with mscontin's and oxys and continued them till i progress to H again. I know I am ready to get clean. I have not touched the oxys for a while (banging h though). I thought I would have no problem reconnecting with someone to get me thru the detoxx but I lost all info and now stuck.

writing this i just realize I might be able to wean down using what I have left of my oxy and oxycodone to get off the dope. I am such a pussy with wd. I had it in my head that I wouldnt have to go thru it again but due to my own stupid high shit I lost all the info I had set up.l I am about to do a top to bottom search of the house for it. Even my wife is chipping in to help. she loves me but cant put our kids thru a life watching daddy fuck up. She wanted me to do the work needed to get my detox and now due to being fucking too high one night lost all my paperwork. Has anyone here done a slow wean using oxycodone or oxycontin which btw is not what I remember them to be. cant bang them or even snort them anymore. The thirtys you can but not the long acting ones.

To think I am so fucking far away from dope for 5 yrs and really loving life, good job, living on the beach here in baja, kids being bi lingual now. they speak spanish well and english. We even had to make it a rule no spanish at home so they dont forget english. they play with the kids outside and get enough practice with spanish... school does teach engllish to the kids and for my kids it a breeze but scares us they migh foret if we always speak spanish to them. I really dont want my kids back in the states. I want them here at the age they are now. really no dope here in the town we live.. I have to drive a hour to get dope in TJ. In the town we live not even pot around. Like its not even MExico or is it the states.
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby gillabug » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:47 am

oh Fred, my heart breaks for you.. I know how tough being addicted is! I don't see any reason why you can't use the Oxy you have to wean off with. Best of luck to you.. :thumbup:
Never make anyone a priority when all you are to them is an option...

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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby Thor » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:12 am

ratch wrote:Hopefully a warning for some..and comfort for others knowing that they arent going fucking crazy when the sub wd's last 30+++ days, and the paws can go on for 6 months or more. When I jumped 6 years ago, not many people had gotten off sub long term.. I started in 1998 with buprenex (off-label), and switched to sub in 2003/04?? But it was crazy, one member at the site I used to belong to, secretly PM'ed me that it can last up to a year... not very comforting news, but at least I knew I was not alone. Thats why I have done this for so long (warned others) because no Dr, or medical site (or Suboxone site) will tell people the truth. Sub has its place, for EXTREME cases or chronic relapsers.. But most people here should have never been put on sub.


Ratch, I feel your pain. I lasted free of sub for 21 days after being on it for 6 years at doses of 8-10mg, on Subutex, not Suboxone.

During the 21 days, I was immobile. Couldn't move or do anything. Sadly, bathing, washing, even getting up to get a glass of water was hard. I know a person who was on it for 5 yrs, and managed 60 days clean. Finally couldn't take it, and had some dust.

The sheer heaviness of your body is what knocked me out. Carrying a gazillion pounds. So after standing for 1-2 minutes, my oxy would gravitate towards the floor.

Sounds like at your 42 days, you still have this element. It's a fatigue that I believe comes from heaviness. There's nothing nimble or light about your body. And to carry this heaviness around for more than 5 minutes is a life challenge.

In the 21 days I was off it, I lost 3 weeks of work, couldn't shave, went from 200lbs of fairly defined muscle, to 160 pounds of my former self.

But here's one new theory---for us long time users, I believe the half-life theory is wrong. I believe it ends up in our muscle and fat cells. Losing weight may accelerate this. Believe me, it wasn't by choice.

But I understand your fatigue. Don't know how you can even interact and take that business trip. I thought I would miss 10 days of work. Each week came around, and I was still in bed.

Once it's out of our cells and our body fully. With I don't have the truthful answer too, as I don't subscribe to the half-life theory when youve been on it for years. In my case 6 years.

But let's just say the stuff if eliminated finally. What can be done to accelerate healing of those receptors. The MU has been hit, and the Kappa has been blocked. It's so darn specific.

Perhaps there is a supplement that literally promotes synapse and receptor regeneration? I read a study on this site, which clearly says long term usage really damages the neuron growth. And other specific brain damage.

So, because of this brain damage, is our fatigue and mental facility damaged for months, years or what ?

I struggle to find long term users who have gone off, stayed off, and feel normal....do you know of any?
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby Not a 12 stepper » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:25 pm

Hey Thor-

Ratch is pretty busy these days, and doesn't post often, but he'll post a reply to your questions here sooner or later, I'm sure-




Most of us don't buy into the whole "permanently brain damaged" mode of thinking around here.

Normally people that taper, and jump from a low dose of methadone or sub, usually feel bad for a month, then have another 2 weeks or so of good days and bad.

A few people do suffer with Post Acute Withdrawal, that can last several more months.

But from the dozens of people I know that have kicked, time away from opiates is the only way to feel better. Some people require longer periods of time than others to get to their new "normal".

Nothing personal here at all Thor, so please don't take this wrong...

I think that after spending years on maintenance, a person gets used to feeling high on opiates, and equates that with feeling "normal". Then when the drugs stop working to the point where it's time to detox, some people expect to feel like they did with a full load of opiates on board, and I'm afraid that will never happen.

It can be hard to adjust our expectations accordingly, but like I said, time off dope/pills will bring reality into a clearer perspective-
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby ratch » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:57 pm

Hey Thor,

Well if its any consolation I feel pretty normal... It took years. Rather than thinking 1/2 life, Muscle/fat retention.. I think the key is "creating a new normal" or plasticity. The first 90 days were the roughest.. I cut my post to 42 days but the original post went out over a year..

I think we stay stoned on opioids for x amount of years, then get on sub (also stoned) for an additional x amount of years... them emerge to sobriety 5/10/20 years later and expect to feel like that spry 20 year old when we are now beaten up middle aged old farts with decades of abuse under our belts. We miss the natural "acceptance" of aging and are time warped into a body that can no longer bounce back like it once did. This isnt the case for everyone, and some pretty young people also get it rough too. The long term jumpers, almost always have it worse. I think its a combination of prolonged 1/2 life, PLUS 101 other factors..age,health,physical activity, acceptance, and motivation.

I truly know the agony of dragging a razor across your face and feeling every hair scream as its being cut, or dreading the shower because the thought of water against your body and the temperature changes are freakishly uncomfortable... all I can say is there are some milestones.. in 30 days you will feel better, in 90 you'll feel human again, and by 6 months youll just feel "weird",, after a year you are at 99% .

I truly wish I had a clean cut answer.
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby tard » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:03 pm

I want to thank you for all the post on this thread. I jumped 16 days ago and I want to crawl into a hole and die. I have been taking PK's for 5 years and Subs for 2 years. At this point, I occasionaly take Xanex (.25mg) and a lot of ibuprofin. Since then, I have only slept in the same bed with my wife once and she told me I was kicking at her and tossing all night. I have been tempted to break down and get some sort of low dose opiate just to help with my fatigue, sneezing, clamy hands and other wd's, but I really don't think its worth chancing going through the hell I have already walked through. My Dr. gave me Subs and said they are "non-addictive". If I only knew, I would have taken my chances on jumping before subs. Is there any sign or any feeling of pride or something to help me stay motivated? I know its wearing down my wife and I keep looking for some outlet. 16 days! C'mon Man! Is there any rememdies anyone has tried and has at least some success? Thanks for listening guys......
sub free - Nov 15 2011
oxy/opiate free - Nov 6 2011

Nobody will respect you until you can learn to respect yourself.
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby cheeps » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:33 am

immodium and time
That's Mr Cheeps, don't forget it.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
5 months on Oxy
Oxy free 9/11
A year on Percs & Oxy 30 to 240mgs, back surgery 5/12/14!!
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby tard » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:53 pm

I never took immodium, I just dealt with it. However, I started yesterday and actually feel a little better today. Was it the immodium or the time? I heard the Loperamide in Immodium helps....today was the first day I didnt do the "Easter Egg Hunt" around my house for any lonely suboxone wrappers (strips)
sub free - Nov 15 2011
oxy/opiate free - Nov 6 2011

Nobody will respect you until you can learn to respect yourself.
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby tard » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:20 am

by the way cheeps, I like your signature. Clean since 9/10/11. People like you keep me motivated. Everyone I personally know is still using. I am the only one who has jumped and this site is my only way to turn. Your drug free signature makes me know that it is possible. Thanks for that.
sub free - Nov 15 2011
oxy/opiate free - Nov 6 2011

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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby bluengold » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Hey Thor-

Ratch is pretty busy these days, and doesn't post often, but he'll post a reply to your questions here sooner or later, I'm sure-




Most of us don't buy into the whole "permanently brain damaged" mode of thinking around here.

Normally people that taper, and jump from a low dose of methadone or sub, usually feel bad for a month, then have another 2 weeks or so of good days and bad.

A few people do suffer with Post Acute Withdrawal, that can last several more months.

But from the dozens of people I know that have kicked, time away from opiates is the only way to feel better. Some people require longer periods of time than others to get to their new "normal".

Nothing personal here at all Thor, so please don't take this wrong...

I think that after spending years on maintenance, a person gets used to feeling high on opiates, and equates that with feeling "normal". Then when the drugs stop working to the point where it's time to detox, some people expect to feel like they did with a full load of opiates on board, and I'm afraid that will never happen.

It can be hard to adjust our expectations accordingly, but like I said, time off dope/pills will bring reality into a clearer perspective-


Brilliant post and perspective, and may I add that "long-term" can also be relative in its own right.

I should start by commending Ratchet for his dedication of logging his actual experience, which feels like at times can both be a horrific and enlightening experience. I read the entire 42 days and scrolled down to see if there was more. At first I thought the OP went back to suboxone again but I'm very glad that it seems like he's kicked the habit for good, after what appears to be decades of recreational drug abuse.

I was interested in the post because I myself am suffering from the same type of problem. I am a senior in college and am close to my B.A in kinesology along with possible grad school options. I have grow up with both a father and mother in the medical professions (neurosurgeon and pulmonary MD, respectively) and very much appreciate the general scientific outline that you laid out in this report.

Given the sheer incompetency (or greed/lust for lucrative pharmaceutical endorsements) of the medical or should i say "medical"/pharmaceutical institutions (of which i am part of) and the blatant lack of credible research (some of it due to time constraints, ie the drug hasn't been on the market as long) I feel like I should keep a log of my eventual (hopefully soon).

My situation this:I'm 23 a month away from 24 years of age. Been on sub for three years, in a somewhat ironic twist I have only really been on heavy opiates for 6 months before getting on sub, although during this three year stretch of sub self-medication I have also been sporadically (once every month or every couple of weeks) IVing dope. I'm a practical person and I know that practically my body won't be able to sustain this lifestyle (drinking, smoking weed, taking sub) for my entire life, at least if i want to live past 40. I knew the WDs would be withdrawn but I had never heard of PAWS or any of the other possible life-alterating (other overcome-able) physiological/psychological effects that i might have to face.

I had to use the word "normal" since it's entirely relative as well as subjective but how long after your initial dump did you feel like you had recovered at least 75% physically? At what point did you feel like you had recovered at least 75% mentally? How long until 90%?
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Re: Ratch- my 1st 42 days off sub

Postby ratch » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:28 pm

90 days is the "norm".. but age plays a pretty important factor. It seems 35 to 50 is pretty rough. had a few 18-21 years olds feel great after a week or two. BUT, its really random and sometimes its just the way the neural pathways are laid out. Now physically, 30 days/ but 90 days you feel about 90% better mentally. I have a couple years documented, and now it's been 7 years and I am pretty much perfect, still drug free.
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