Taper, Take Two

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Taper, Take Two

Postby Martin » Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:13 pm

Hello
I'm not sure how long I have been on subs. It's been about a year now.
Here's the deal. I was on sub for about a year (8mg daily). I quit in December of 2015 after
a rapid taper to 3mg. I was sub-free for about 12 months till about December of last year.
Most of that 12 months was spent staring at a walls. I'm pretty sure that condition was PAWS.

I had a HUGE surplus of sub when I stopped sub in 2015. I never threw it out.
So yeah, So after being 12 months off sub, I turned around reverse-tapered my way back up to 8mg daily.
(At first, the little tiny specks I started taking made me feel alive again.......eventually they brought me
to the place I am in now - foggy headed and just taking this shit so I don't get sick.)

So that's where I am right now. Recently I have tapered down to 6mg.

I am tapering but I want to go very slow. I want to have as painless of a withdrawal/post withdrawal as possible, and I want to avoid PAWS. And I sure don't want to jump off sub in the winter again -
(so violent chills won't be one of my WD symptoms.) I have the will power to stop cold turkey,
But I want to do it right this time. So I want this taper to go much much slower. I'm in no hurry.

I'm planning on Jumping at the end of May of 2018. Right now I am doing about 1mg cuts about
once a week. If it's too much, I bump back up a mg and try again the next day. The cuts will get
much smaller and gradual once I reach 2mg. A taper plan is requested.

I have been reading this board for a long long time. I feel like I already know some of you.
I also feel kinda ashamed, ashamed to be in this position again while some of you have remained clean.
Time to get to work.

I hope I can find the motivation to stop for good this time. This time, I have the advantage of knowing what's waiting for me on the other side and it definitely isn't sunshine, rainbows, and mountain tops......or even that mythical place I used to call "Normal". It's hard work, taking the punches and moving on.
Benzo Free June 2015
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Back on Sub June 2017, 8mg a day
Tapering @ 3mg a day
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Mare » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:58 pm

Welcome back Martin.

It sounds like you got through the WDs but with the PAWs it didn't stick, and hanging on to your supply didn't make things any easier on you. Gotta get rid of it i when the time comes! Have you read the thread on PAWS with all the great info compiled for us by Cheeps? I'd highly recommended it. I'd be prepared to suffer again, whether it's winter or not. It won't be a picnic, but maybe this time with a steadier taper, things won't be so rough on you. PAWS is not necessarily entirely avoidable, so I wouldn't set that expectation to not have to deal with it. When the time comes, you may just have to grin and bear it, but if you stick around these lovely people will hold your hand and listen to your griping!

I'm on a new taper too, so we can be buddies. I'll be around here a lot so I'll be checking up on you. How are you feeling today? When did you last cut down to the 6mg? Most importantly, what do you plan on doing differently this time around?

Glad you're here and on track again.

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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby cheeps » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:10 pm

Hey Martin....what up dude.

Yeah....that high jump off three really sucked. You'll be much better this time going slower. I feel you on the chill....are you above the mason Dixon line? I'm glad you came back....it takes a nut to do that. Forgive yourself and hang out with us. We have several in active taper.

Since the rule of thumb is no more than a 20% cut every ten to fourteen....so you'll be able to get thru the winter just fine. This time when you get done, you are gonna burn the leftovers. Wait....do you have enough to get low?
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Martin » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:44 am

Thanks for your response. Yeah, I got enough sub to last. I had to go back to my sub doctor months ago so there's no worries about running out. I cancelled my last appointment, but I want to stay in good standing with him for future comfort meds. On my last jump my primary doctor wouldn't prescribe ANYTHING - not even clonidine, so I didn't have any comfort meds to help me.

Yup - I'm above the Mason Dixon line. BRRRRRRRR, it's a cruel winter already.

Nice to meet you Mare! I read your bio. Looks like you have temp control issues too. Me too, profuse sweating,
I have to have a fan on me at all times, even in the winter. I hate it! But take the sub away and I get the chills really bad - the winters here can be brutal.
Benzo Free June 2015
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Back on Sub June 2017, 8mg a day
Tapering @ 3mg a day
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Mare » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:23 pm

Dang, yeah I can't stand the temperature thing. I've been wearing this sweater that's loosely knit so it keeps me warm but doesn't make me sweat and it's got all these little air holes. It's perfect for my chills/hot flashes.

Keep up the good work!

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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:22 am

Hey brave Dude, welcome. Just wanted to say hello. Also my round two although you made it further than I did on your round one. I can tell you’re going to do great. A W is in your future for sure.

I’ve been laying a bit low dealing with an unexpected speed bump during my taper. But I wanted to let you know I’m follow your new thread along with the nice San Francisco artist Mare.

On a lighter note...do you have a D-28 or a D-35? I have a nice HD-28 that I love. If you have no idea what I’m referring to then you used the Martin logo only because it matched your name. If you do know what I’m talking about then you’re probably a great guitarist :-)

Either way, welcome. Everyday is another day closer to freedom and we’re all moving in the right direction...even when it might not be a straight line. A graph of my taper looks more like an EKG wave than a nice straight decending line haha.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ 0.1 mg 2xday
Alprazolam: Awww you betcha!
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Martin » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:18 pm

great to meet you SDD!

Great Guess! my Martin is a OMC cut-away model, yeah, it's my baby! You got an HD28! That's is seriously awesome!
what kind of music do you play? I primarily play classical guitar, but I'm really getting the Bluegrass bug since I got my Martin.....it seems to be
in vogue for aging, burnout rockers like myself....but it's alot of fun too.

I know what you mean about speedbumps dude. I imagine I'm going to be hitting one soon too.
Doing good today. Holding at 6, but just worrying about the trials and tribs that lay ahead - I've made so much
progress musically and professionally, I hope I can keep that up when I jump again. When am I going to have time to be sick, or even operating at less than what I am now? It's scary to think about.

Have a great day!
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:26 pm

Martin! Waaaay cool. Are you a full-time musician? You wrote an 'old rocker like me' aren't you like 25 years old?!?!? I AM THE OLD ROCKER, trust me. I'm 56 years old, I grew up with Led Zeppelin and The Who etc. etc. And of course the greatest rock-in-roll band in the world...The Rolling Fucking Stones. Mare lives in Grateful Dead country...nice.

Dude I play every style of music there is. Not well, but I play them haha. I am what you'd call a 'hobby guitarist'. I gig, have a nice recording studio and music room (one of the few benefits of getting older...you get and collect stuff).

I have bought one guitar a year, usually at Christmas, every year for the past 35 years. So I have small but very nice collection (again...old dude = stuff) haha. It's about 50/50 electric acoustic. Only one Martin, 4 Taylors, a few custom one of a kind hand made models, 5 Fenders, 2 Gibsons and 3 PRS's. The Paul Reed Smith factory is really close to my house. You may live near Nazareth, PA (Martin factory). I know you're in the northeast somewhere.

I was giging a couple of times a week and stopped in July because I just couldn't trust how I would feel having to face a booked gig. I miss it and it's one of the things that motivates me highly to get off of bupe. I am already seeing the fretboard more clearly on lower sub doses and playing better...but I have almost totally stopped playing since I went below 1 mg. Can't wait to reinvent myself and play again.

If I had to say what my #1 genre/style is it's classic rock and blues. I am a bar guitarist. I play solo gigs but mostly I'm part of a duo where I play lead and my partner play rhythm and does most of the singing. He's am amazing vocalist.

I just came out of a 5 year stint playing Gypsy Jazz...the music of Django Reinhardt. I kind of lost my fever for it but studying it really upped my skills. I learned to pick fast and it forced me to learn a ton of theory and further my fretboard mastery.

I'm so glad to meet you. I am happy you're tackling this sub situation we're both in. Drop a post and tell me about your playing. I got a few tunes on youtube if you want to listen to one sometime let me know. One in particular has some really great guitar work in it if I do say so myself. Just to warn you, the songs are about atheism so not to offend. Funny thing is I wrote and recorded these songs when I was on a whopping 32 mg of sub a day...so weird to think about all the things you have done while on sub. But the first couple of years of sub was OK. I mean it was ignorant and unnecessary and I regret it but I learned from this site the phenomena that people refer to as sub 'turing on you'. That definitely happened to me.

Rock on!
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ 0.1 mg 2xday
Alprazolam: Awww you betcha!
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby cheeps » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:50 pm

For the both of you....


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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby cheeps » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:58 pm

Another of my favorites...just for you Martin!

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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:37 pm

Very cool Cheeps! I watched both of them. Make me want to play more. Thanks for that.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ 0.1 mg 2xday
Alprazolam: Awww you betcha!
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby cheeps » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:58 am

I had the pleasure of seeing a shitload of bluegrass up close and in person. It sucks that most of it is gospel, religious based but some of the best musicians play bluegrass.
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Martin » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:14 pm

Very cool cheeps - Yeah, that's the stuff I like to play! I don't really mind most of the gospel stuff -
you gotta put up with that with alot of roots music - especially the blues. Check out Split Lip Rayfield if you haven't already. They are from around these parts. Good Stuff!

Yeah SDD, I wish I was 25! I'm 48, so I'm not too far behind ya. And no offense on your religious view.
I'm with you. I used to be an aethiest, but I've changed my affiliation to "agnostic" I want to believe I really do. I wish religion could give me the peace and tranquility that it gives some people - it would be a great tool. My rational mind won't let it happen, it thinks it's f*cking stupid to believe/talk to somebody that obviously isn't there. I used to be a nihilist punk rocker in my younger years, so tearing down god and religion used to be a favorite past-time of mine. I played punk and metal in my heyday. I'm really coming into my own in more sophisticated music these days. I like to call myself a "semi-pro" classical guitarist, I'm hoping to enter some competitions and become the next Andres Segovia someday! :) But no, I'm not a working musician. I have 3 very young kids...so I have to work a day job. But if there's a spare moment, there's a guitar in my hands. That's one the things that worries me the most about my post-sub future. The last time I jumped, I barely touched my guitar for
a whole year. I had even thought about selling all my gear. It really scares me. I love the Rolling Stones! I have been a fan since I was five years old. Especially their earlier stuff. One of my
favorite albums of all time is Big Hits, High Tide, Green Grass. I grew up listening to that album over and over and over. That album represents the tone that I'm always striving to get - bright with a little dirt,
lotsa Reverb. You ever seen in em in Concert? I haven't. I need to do this because time isn't on their side!
I'm an obsessive gear-head too! got quite a collection myself. Gypsy Jazz? Sweet dude! You read my mind. I'm actually wanting to get into that - I am really drawn to Solo guitar - any genre that doesn't require too much collaboration with others. I just can't bring myself to work with a band
right now...... music is just too subjective and personal and any fingerstyle guitarist worth his salt can get by without a band. Maybe with the right people, place and time....I dunno.

Still holding at 6 and doing good. Well gotta get back to work......hopefully it slows down soon!
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Mare » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:09 pm

Good work and keep it up man. Wish I could join in on this but I've always been pretty musically inept.. just wasn't my forte (ha ha ha...) my biggest venture in music was idolizing Weird Al as a kid and writing ridiculous parodies to pop songs as a 12 year old.

What I can say is I feel you on the religious view thing. Wish I could say I believed because it seems that for those who do, there are fewer questions and more meaning. I'm envious of those who believe they know what's right, what's true, what our time here means, and what happens after. But then I'm sad because of all the hate and war that comes out of something as small as our beliefs.. I confess though that I love tarot cards because they can be like a little tool of introspection. No great beyond is telling me anything, I'm just reading into what's being said by these basic symbols. Helps me focus and acknowledge things I've been avoiding.
Guess my California is showing now

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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Martin » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:40 pm

Yeah, I know religious people aren't bad as individuals, but united by the millions I feel like they promote hatred, war, genocide, etc - the very things their teachings are against. I often wonder if there really is a God, maybe us unbelievers are the ones who are going to be saved because we don't take part in their evil?

Ha, I used to buy Tarot Cards just because they looked so cool! So metal too - I just had to get me a deck of
the ones Aleister Crowley designed, Toth Deck I think they were called.
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Mare » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:06 pm

Agreed! Something I stumbled upon in my fruitless search for answers (Been fascinated by religion since childhood. Did my big project at the end of 5th grade on world religion and have taken a number of courses in college on mythology and religion) was Gnostic Christianity. Some say it's the unadulterated version of yore, but it's basically just saying that Jesus was A "Christ" (as in, not THE), kind of like being A "Buddha", and that if we treat one another well and strive to be "Christ-like", we open our hearts and our minds to a sense of enlightenment. I wish that took off instead of what we got ruling our world (and our bodies). Instead of hating gays and anyone with a head garment we would be loving and compassionate because we all have it in us. That would be really cool.

And I think the Crowley deck was Thoth. I believe Thoth was an Egyptian God? Not sure, but yeah that's the big classic one these days. I really like the Oracle cards designed by Brian and Wendy Froud (the conceptual designers of most of the creatures in the Labyrinth, and Wendy also MADE Yoda). They're artistic geniuses. Highly recommend checking out Brian Froud's art. It's just so pretty.

Hope you're doing well. Keep on trucking!

Mare
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Martin » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:25 pm

Hello friends. I'm still fighting the good fight. I have lost one battle but I haven't lost the war.
Its been a really rough week. I was gliding along at 6 (just about to drop to 5)and then I ran into alot
of stress at work and I spiked for a couple of days, but I'm back on track. I don't know why I did it, I know
a little bit more sub isn't going to do dick for me.....but I'm still in that mind frame to reach for something
when I'm stressed or just want to feel good.

I have also been having alot of pain in my abdomen which I thought was either gallstones or pancreatitis.
My blood tests came back fine, and I'm waiting on the results of an x-ray. But I expect them to find nothing.
The resident expert (Thanks Cheeps!) schooled me a little and evidently this kind of pain isn't out of the
ordinary for someone on Subs! So, I need to make some changes to my diet as well - veggies and fruits.
I'm starting to think doctors are full of shit, especially sub-doctors. :lol:

Today I'm going to start dosing only twice a day. Previously I have been dosing at least 4 times a day, this is
nasty little habit that began when I started sneaking little slivers from my the old sub stash I never threw out
when I was clean for a year. So, yeah I have been taking 1mg-2mg slivers 4-6 times a day for this whole stint.
(but never more than my 6mg limit a day)
Cheeps set me straight and gave me some good advice. I feel my best when I wake up first thing in the morning,
and most of the time I tell myself "why would I f*ck this up by taking sub?" So I think the first dose of
the day should be at 11am, and then the second dose before I go to bed at about 11pm. Afternoons and
evenings are the hardest for me and when I tend to spike.

Since I was dosing so many times a day, I would rush the dosage, the dosage would get interrupted
by talking, and even eating and drinking. I doubt I was fully absorbing 6mg probably half that at best.
I'm thinking I can probably get away with 3-4mg if I make sure I don't get interrupted and I let it absorb
under my tongue? What do you think? Should I try it?

Anyhow, I'm doing ok, back on track.
Benzo Free June 2015
Sub Free Dec 2015 For about a year
Back on Sub June 2017, 8mg a day
Tapering @ 3mg a day
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby Mare » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:01 pm

Glad to have you back. My drop from 8mg to 4mg happened in a matter of weeks and was almost imperceptible. I'd say try 4mg and see how you feel. Even the drop from 4mg to 3mg didn't really begin to hurt but if you're still feeling stressed maybe you should be cautious and just go to 4mg. But I definitely think you'll be okay if you drop to 4mg because 6 is really high and most people here say the true issues don't come until under 2mg. I personally can't speak from experience on the matter though as my lowest dose has been my current at 2.5mg.
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby CatsMeow » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:05 pm

You ask some excellent questions Martin. I'm currently on 3.25 mg's. I dose twice per day & at approximately the same time. A rigid schedule for me is critical. I make sure that I won't be interrupted too so that I get the full bioavailability. I also use a journal to document everything. This keeps me in control of my taper. It feels good.

I started at 16 mg's, but began to taper after approx 3 weeks because it was way too much for me. I went down to 14, 12, 10, 8 then to 6. I tried to go from 6 to 4 or 5 & wow all hell broke loose. I started dropping by .5 mg only. That worked well until about 4.5. At that point I began to drop by .25. I know it's slow but the side effects are minimal. I know you want to taper slowly too.

Sure some drops are easier than others, but the important part is that I continue to taper. I also adjust my body & mind to each dose prior to dropping again. Cheeps calls is homeostasis.

She also says that this is a process not a race. It teaches patience. Patience that we're going to need down the road.

Best of luck Martin.

BTW, the hubs inherited his Dad's 1957 Fender Stratocaster (sp?). It's in mint condition with the case & everything original. He doesn't play though. I kind of wish someone else owned it that would appreciate it & use it. Playing your guitar is a great goal to reach for post sub. It must make your mind feel great to make beautiful music. I'll just have to settle on listening to music. I loved it in the past & expect to love it again after this sub shit.

Hope you're feeling well today.
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Re: Taper, Take Two

Postby cheeps » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:40 am

Martin...for the times you will feel like reaching for a dose...grab an ibuprofen or a vitamin instead. Are you taking any supplements? It's even fine to throw a piece of cardboard under your tongue. Or a piece of sugarless gum. Freddy is very easy to fool once you get the hang of it.
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