Mare counts down from 8

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

New girl

Postby Mare » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:12 am

Hey, I'm new here. I've never really been one to engage in forum discussion, but after finding this site I'm pretty hopeful. After two years of bupe maintenance with zero slip ups, I found myself ready to start the taper. I'm 28, born and raised in the California Bay Area, aspiring artist and massage therapist by trade, and I love Stitch (from the Disney movie)!

I started looking for help and accounts of real-life experience, tapering schedules, what to expect.. but the more I read from the ancient drugs.com and blue light posts Google was feeding me, the more I realized that I didn't want to join in on a discussion that wasn't primarily focused on getting off for good. I'm happy to have found this community which seems to have a generally positive and forward thinking attitude.

I got hooked on Oxy at 20, was using IV heroin at 21, and I tried to get clean so many times between then and now. At 26 I finally was in bad enough trouble that I went to a court ordered rehab and I was lucky enough to find my life changed at the end of the 4 months. I had detoxed off methadone and got onto Suboxone in my final month there.

I never thought I'd "have the time" to detox, and I was always putting it off far into the future out of fear. I'm finally ready to put addiction replacement therapy drugs in the past, and glad that I have found this new resource. It's hard because I don't really know anyone who has successfully detoxed from Suboxone without relapsing eventually. I'm not super social, but the friends I do have don't really understand how big this is and what it's like to experience. I hope to find that here.

This month, I bumped down from 8mg to 5.3mg, then again to 4mg daily. I'm hoping to be off completely in about the next 3 months. I have a break from work for the next 5 months and the time is right. I'm getting a lot of insomnia, RLS and general aches, an endless tummy ache, plus I started having some really weird dreams. Other than that, I'm doing just fine so far!

So that's my story that leads up to now. I'm happy to have found this active forum, and I'm hopeful to find some mutual support in the members I may meet here. Thanks for reading, and thanks for having me!

-Mare
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Re: New girl

Postby CatsMeow » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:04 am

Welcome to SS Mare! Big congrats on tapering down to 4 mg's. That's a huge step in the right direction. Regarding tapering subs please go low & slow. When you drop, let your body completely adjust before tapering again. That way you'll stay strong & positive for the drops to come.

I'm very close to you at 3.5 mg's. I'm 59 years old so I'm having to take it super slow only dropping .25 mg's at a time. Have you completely adjusted to 4 mg's with no WD symptoms? Cheeps calls it homeostasis. When our body & mind adjust completely to the drop. If you can follow that formula, you can be free of subs given some time. You also must be flexible. If it takes longer to reach homeostasis after a drop, stay on that dose until you have no WD symptoms. You'll be glad that you did!

We have a wonderful group here currently tapering. They have saved me more times than I can count. Their experience & advice is beyond reproach. You will get the truth here... the good, the bad & the ugly.

I just wanted to welcome you & I know that others will come along to support you too. Best of luck on your road to being opy free! You can do it, just like I will do it.
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:50 pm

Thank you Meow for your welcoming support! I've peeked around the site a bit but haven't delved very deep.. so far I like what I see!

As far as maintaining at 4mg goes, I'm still struggling. I've always thought my body breaks down opiates at a rapid rate and have had to split dose everything I've ever used in the department.. I even had a special order through the methadone clinic to split my doses at 30mg daily which was unheard of there for anyone under 180mg. To that end, I've started splitting my daily dose of bupe to 2mg every 12 hours. There were 2 times this week I forgot to take my nighttime dose, so I had a couple really rough mornings at 4mg. Lots of hot/cold sweats, tummy aches, appetite loss, and achey legs. I do plan on going slower from here on out. I'm going to Disneyland for 4 days in about 3 weeks and I don't wanna be suffering while I'm there, so I'll probably bump down one more time before then and settle until I return home.

I'm glad to have found the liquid taper thread here, as I've been curious about how to get to the lower doses (I've just been cutting my strips down into quarters thus far). I'm gonna have to get one of those little shot bottles of vodka to try it out. I'm sure with some smaller bumps down I'll be adjusting better than my "cut it in half again" method.

Thanks for the advice and support again! Gotta get ready for work
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Re: New girl

Postby CatsMeow » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:02 pm

Mare, I also dose twice per day. Do you drink lots of water? If not, start! I also thought that I have a fast metabolism, but I'm not so sure. I drink a ton of water & I think that washes out the toxins (& the subs) faster, hence dosing 2 x per day.

I will tell you that when I adjusted to 4 mg's I felt absolutely great. Wonderful energy, clear head & an overall good feeling. Thank goodness because a hurricane came & almost wiped out my city. I held there for quite a while so that I could help those that needed help the most (including my best friend).

Then as I dropped below 4 mg's the drops became more difficult for me. Please see my thread "Am I Tapering Too Slow" under the SubSux Section. Search for the "Meow Method" of tapering. You might find it interesting, or you might think it's too slow. Everyone is different! You will find what works for you at these lower doses with patience & more patience.

The advice that was given me was to make sure that you completely adjust to your dose drop prior to dropping again. Especially with a vacation coming up. You don't want to be feeling poorly on such a wonderful vacation!

Cheeps calls this a process not a race. Wise words from a wise woman! The boards are probably slow right now with the Holidays upon us. I guarantee there will be others here to help you achieve your goals of Sub = 0!

I hope you're feeling well today!
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:00 am

Cat-

I do forget to drink enough water all the time... Thanks for the reminder! Usually I just intermittently chug bottles of coconut water...

Wow that's amazing! I can't imagine enduring a major tragedy in the midst of a taper. Good on you for sticking with it. I'm sorry you had to go through that... Hope everything is okay there...

I'll definitely check out your thread once I'm off work later on! Thanks for checking in. You're right about the holidays.. I guess it never crossed my mind. My family isn't really big on holidays... Everyone's so fucked up and sick it's kind of just another day for us.

Today at around 9pm I had been working for about 5 hours and I had taken my last dose of 2mg only 6 hours prior.. and it just hit me like a ton of bricks! I started sweating bullets, and I've been sweating for about an hour. It's weird because it feels like all of a sudden it got bad and I've been at this dose for over 7 days now, except for those two nights this week I missed my 2nd half of the dose for the day...

My last missed half dose was night before last. Could it have something to do with that? I just can't figure it out! I mean, I'm okay, but it's weird that all of a sudden I'm so clammy and I have sweat on my brow! I usually feel great at work because I move around so much it doubles as exercise! Not today... Bleugh!!

Anyways, thanks again Cat for checking in on the holidays. Glad to have someone around who knows what's up!

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Re: New girl

Postby CatsMeow » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:28 am

Regarding the hurricane, there are still thousands of people without their homes. The aftermath is much worse than the hurricane. We've been here before, but this one is particularly bad. We will rebuild! It just takes time. Thanks for asking.

There's no doubt that missing doses is messing with you. You should be as consistent as possible with your dosing schedule. You have not adjusted yet to 4 mg's in my humble opinion. It takes about 3 to 4 days for your body to react to those missed doses due to the long half life of Sub. I believe that's why you've got the sweats now.

Please try to dose your 2 mg's twice per day at or around the exact time each day & don't miss one! Give it more time & your body will adjust & you'll reach homeostasis & feel normal. That's where you want to be for your upcoming vacation. This commitment is hard but necessary.

Also, as we get lower, (perhaps for you & certainly for me) than 4 mg our receptors are possibly no longer fully covered. This will make the adjustment to lower doses a bit more complicated. But with consistent dosing & hard work you will adjust & feel okay. I wait until every single symptom of WD is gone (even the smallest ones like an upper back ache for me) is totally gone. Then I may decide to hold for a week or 2 to ready myself for another drop.

I just want you to be feeling like yourself for that vacation! Happy Thanksgiving to you & your family dear.
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:32 pm

Thanks Cat.

Glad you've been here through the holiday for me. It has been helping me a lot with my insomnia. I used to sleep like a baby before I started the taper and lately I've been staying up until 7am on a pretty regular basis. I started sleeping at ~3:30am the last few days but I still wake up a lot through the night. Now when I wake up, I read threads on here and am able to go back to sleep without getting engaged in any kind of heavy stimulation (video games or TV).

I'm feeling a lot better today after keeping my doses regular the last few days. Still have mild clamminess but I didn't wake up freezing or hurting! I think once I stabilize at 4mg I'm gonna try a smaller step down. Probably gonna try to step down to 3.5mg. I've been handling these big steps pretty well (even at 8mg I was having some WD symptoms so I don't expect to ever be completely stable during this taper).

Anyways, Happy Thanksgiving and thanks for the support

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Re: New girl

Postby cheeps » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:35 pm

Hey Mare...I have the eye strain from hell right now but wanted to say....welcome to our little corner of the web. You have found your new home. These peeps are great and you will fit right in!

Keep reading threads especially the longer ones....glad ms kitty was here to greet you.... :wave:
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:58 am

Thanks Cheeps,

Definitely been diving in to some of the threads but my attention span is only letting me read so much at a time. Finding it really interesting that there's so many different methods and jumping off points with accompanying taper journals. Honestly it's just what I was looking for, so cool!
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Re: New girl

Postby cheeps » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:08 am

It's hard to pick thru this stuff but I will say the subsucks part has the most good stuff....the forum needs updating but we don't have the money and IT person to do it. Sometime the search thing helps. We don't stickie hardly anything because peeps' experiences hold the keys to wisdom.

People keep bragging on me but all I really do is try to point you to certain threads that are relevant. And it is a bitch to read when you feel like shit. My vision is acting up and my glasses are not right. Vision changes are huge during taper and detox...
But eventually the eyes adjust...so if you wear glasses don't get them changed unless you can afford it...six months from now, your eyes will be different. This is more advice for all the old fuckers here but I'm putting it in your stuff.
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Re: New girl

Postby CatsMeow » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:58 am

Hi Mare. Sorry to hear that you're not sleeping well. This appears to be a product of your taper. So it seems that you haven't stabilized yet at 4 mg's. Keep doing what you're doing & it will come. Take your doses on a consistent basis, drink lots of water & exercise. It sounds like your job is a workout in itself so that is really great.

Are you aware of the "ceiling effect" of subs? You can do a Search on the Forum to get good information about it. It's a very important concept of subs that you need to know.

You've dropped from 8 mg to 4 mg (then missed a couple of doses too). While this is so great (the tapering part), it's important for you to adjust completely to each drop. Your lack of sleep, clamminess, freezing & hurting are probably all withdrawal symptoms. I hope that you'll stay at 4 mg and let your body & brain heal. This takes time due to the long half life of subs.

No one likes to not be able to sleep well & there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to also. All it takes is time. When we decide we're ready to taper off of sub we ALL want it done like yesterday. But it takes time to taper. If you go too fast, you experience these types of symptoms that you've got now.

I started out on 16 mg. I was able to drop doses quickly above about 5 mg's. Then I started having serious WD's when dropping. At that point I began to taper by .25 mg. I know it's slow, but I have slept pretty well throughout & that's a big deal to me. Now I'm not saying that it has been easy. This is not an easy process.

I hope that your attention span will lengthen so that you may be able to read more here on the Forum. Knowledge is power & there are many knowledgeable people here on SS. They've been exactly where you are now & will guide you when needed.

Hope you're well today!
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:20 pm

Cheeps,

Thanks for the eye advice. I've definitely noticed my vision get worse over the years of various opiate use, and I'm sure there's still yet to come. I'll have to stick it out.. I don't have any glasses now cause I always lose them so I just keep a pair of contacts for emergency use only (mostly concerts).

I started at the top of your list on the welcome mat post but that's all gonna take some time. I'm enjoying Dan's post from the beginning. Only a few pages in but I'm entertained by the way he writes so it'll be an easier read.

Mare
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:31 pm

Cat,

Thanks, yeah my job is definitely a big workout but I'm only there 2 days a week. I'm a floor manager at a Walgreens and I have to handle the warehouse receiving days so I do a lot of lifting, organizing, and running out to the floor to handle everything from bringing change to registers to helping out in the pharmacy (weird place for someone recovering from addiction, but cool to be in the position to do so). The other 5 days a week I'm playing video games or vegging out with BF. Need to do more walking. He likes to jog but my body simply cannot handle it at the moment. I tried and my heart rate went insane and I got so clammy!

I'll definitely look into the ceiling effect. Trying to be more patient. I really expected to be fully adjusted to the 4mg by now but I kept messing up! I'll see how I feel in another 4 days and reassess. Gotta get it right! Certainly planning on a slower milder taper for the steps down to come. Can't do another 3 weeks of this kind of yuck.

Gonna go hydrate and dive into some thick reading on here. Thanks for checking up on me :D

Mare
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Re: New girl

Postby CatsMeow » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:47 pm

This all sounds very good Mare! You seem to be a very quick study. I agree with everything you've stated. I want to see you feeling well at 4 mg's with no more withdrawals. Then reassess! Excellent.

Also glad you're reading the threads of the people that have come before you on this journey. I've ready so many & learned so much.

We're so glad to have you here. You can do this! It just takes time & lots of patience. :)
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Re: New girl

Postby Mare » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:24 am

Cat-
Wellll.. so much for that. After having a really good day with a full appetite and minimal discomfort I kinda just said "let's do this!!!" On an impulse I cut my 2nd dose for the day in half so I guess I'm trying for 3mg now. Somehow reading horror stories on here during my dive for "ceiling effect" made me think "eh how bad could it be".. not sure if I'll wake up and regret this tomorrow but I guess I can always take a step back to 3.5 if it sucks too much.. (or convert to Meow Method tomorrow if I feel like a total idiot and wanna take it back)... But I will NOT be tapering any further until after Disneyland!! That's a Mare promise! I'm starting my taper journal so catch me in SS!!
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Mare counts down from 8

Postby Mare » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:05 am

Mare here in SS! Decided to put together the beginnings of a taper journal... Here goes nothin

Why now
Been on 8mg past year or so, been saving up the other half of my monthly script for emergency. Glad I did that now, as I'll be losing my insurance on January 1st 2018. I finally had enough. Just sick of it. I like to enjoy a beer from time to time but I HATE relying on something to be "okay". Hate realizing on my way over to my boyfriend's or wherever "shit, I left my subs at home, can we go back?" Hate waking up in sweats or getting random chills or wearing 3 shirts, a scarf, and a quilted vest indoors in sunny California. Embarrassed that I'll sometimes fall asleep at work giving a massage because the room is dim and the music is peaceful and I just took my dose 90 minutes ago.. it's humiliating. I've never felt fully stable on any dose of subs (or methadone for that matter)... The drowsiness takes away my time and the temperature regulation issues make me feel like crap. Finally willing to get it over with and move on from this mediocrity.

Taper
*Started first week of November. Took 2/3 of 8mg strip (5.3mg) for first 2 weeks. Felt great! Stopped nodding out so easily. Still struggled to stay awake for Netflix with boyfriend... Always have to sit up in bed or else I'm out like a light..

*~Nov 15 bumped down to 4mg. Was drowsy in AM and WDs at night so I split my dose. Worked well, but struggled to remember that new nightly dose so I hit some rough patches. Never spiked though. Created some alarms so I won't mess up again. So far symptoms have been fatigue, minor RLS, some sleeplessness, mild chills, some loss of appetite, tummy aches. Some moderate chills and this weird, unfamiliar, DEEP pain in my core when stretching/yawning following the days I missed my PM doses. Trouble focusing comes and goes. Finding that I'm able to get through the rougher moments easier if I apply myself too something... Art, reading, video games... The stimulation is working for me.. TV is okay when I simply can't focus but when I can it seems to make me feel worse... One weird thing is my nipples are super sensitive... and not in a good way. I don't see it mentioned much and if one day someone is tapering and wondering why their t shirt feels like a fucking cheese grater maybe they'll see this and know their boobs aren't permanently broken. Also having some crazy dreams (sending my dad to a nursing home where he escapes and we steal a car but we both die in a crash.... running away to the Grand Canyon... watching porn with a mermaid and my brother almost walked in on us...) and slight libido increase (at a 0 before and now at a 1.5/10). On Thanksgiving went for a mile long walk to deliver a strip to a friend from highschool who was in need (our grandparents came on the same boat to America from the Philippines in the 40s!) and I noticed all the colors were so bright. I stopped to look at some daisies for a moment... That yellow was the most vibrant, beautiful thing I'd seen in a long time!!!

*Nov 25 (3am) trying 3mg against better judgement. I know I shouldn't be pushing myself too hard but I'm worried about cutting these strips up too small and losing pieces.. truth is I had a pleasant past few days so when my alarm went off for the PM dose, I cut that 2mg piece in half on impulse.. Earlier today was a good day, woke up okay had a great appetite the last few days. Got a pair of earmuffs yesterday and wore them all day... No temperature regulation issues, no tummy stuff.. easy focus.. able to complete chores.. only issue was some back pain but I think that's mostly from hunching over my tablet scouring this forum/sitting on my bed playing Fallout for hours on end... we'll see where this goes. I figure 2mg in AM and 1mg before bed isn't too crazy but we'll see. I'll let you know if I puss out!



If anyone has any recommendations for reading on here, I'd really like to do some research and compare some "complete" taper journals. I'm reading a lot, but I'd love to be pointed in the direction of a few things:
    1. Journals where user jumps off ~2mg with aftermath
    2. Journals where user jumps off .5-.25 with aftermath
    3. Journals where user "walks off" with aftermath
    4. Journals where user switches to SAO, tapers, with aftermath

I know a slow taper is highly recommended but I feel like I need to convince myself that many months of minor, controlled suffering followed by x days of intense suffering plus PAWS is better than ~30 days of severe suffering plus PAWS. I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around the logic and I think I need to read something to counteract.. I know it's not a simple math equation but my brain is fighting me. I've also seen a lot of posts within journals so far saying things like "I wish I had switched/maybe I should switch to a SAO" and it's got me a little curious as to if this is just a passing thought or if this is something that anyone has had success with and hasn't regretted.

Thanks for reading.. I'm Mare!
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Re: Mare counts down from 8

Postby Mare » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:11 pm

Hey just wanted to check in. I'm actually feeling okay after waking up at 3mg. I'm just a little chilly but it's manageable. Somewhere on here I read stabilizing isn't feeling good, it's just feeling like you're not gonna die. I don't expect to ever feel at 100% in this process, but I'm avoiding feeling too low. Then again, it could feel much worse in about 3 days. Gonna take some Tums and a little ibuprofen and see how I fare. Maybe I'll alternate days for a little while (3/4/3/4/3/3/3). Anyone have any experience cutting .5mg portions off an 8mg strip? I'm just worried that the pieces are getting so small it makes me nervous about botching the measurements and screwing myself over..

Off to a family lunch thingy with my Aunt, Grandma, Brother, Father, and the lil cousins. Can't wait to see em.

Mare out
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Re: Mare counts down from 8

Postby Annalo57 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:25 pm

Hi Mare.. I was reading on Cats (Catsmeow is the best) thread and i wanted to let you know that I am on the liquid taper. What she means by doses getting lost is that if you're above 1mg, It's a lot of liquid to get into a piece of cotton, the liquid does spread out in your mouth and you lose some. You can check out my thread as I've been doing it for a while now, and I've spoken on the imprecise nature of the liquid method. Though I have come to view it as a good thing. I'm sure I get less than I think and that is a very good thing. Please ignore some of my more self indulgent rants. They're just emotional dumps, sorely needed as I navigate this process.

I'm not so good with being online for long periods of time, my eyes get tired and fuzzy very easily, and my focus is not good. I'm hoping it will get better once I'm done. I'm currently on .6mg a day taken in 2 does of.3mg.

I hope you're doing well. I've found this process to be a bit easier than I initially expected. Not that its easy, but its nothing like full blown Wds. Patience is key. This place is key.

Stay the course. Stay on the forum. You will beat this shit. We all will.

Anna :banana:
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Re: Mare counts down from 8

Postby Sub4Sevenyrs » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:50 pm

Hey Mare, welcome to the forum. It seems like the subs have turned on you with all those symptoms. I am about to hit my 6 month mark on December 1st and i know all about the shitty symptoms. It was the same reason I had enough, terrible sleep, waking up freezing and/or sweating all the time, shitty mood. Read up on taper threads on this site, it's the only place you'll find real experiences from real people who aren't scared to tell it like it is. I tapered successfully from 4mg down to 1mg then jumped. Let me save you A LOT of stress, tapering is unique to everyone, there is no chart or thread that will tell you the best way to taper. Listen to your body (symptoms) and your mind (emotional/mental attitude). Push when you can, but also take the time to stabilize before you drop again. I was on subs many years so my taper took a while. When you get lower on the dose you can try the liquid taper but cutting should be fine for now. Welcome, keep us updated. Weekends are slow but you will get a lot of good advice on here.
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Re: Mare counts down from 8

Postby Mare » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:38 pm

Anna! Thanks for checking in. I've been working my way through your thread. Will check in the once I've finished it all up. Seen your posts around and taking in what you have to say. I get the losing some concept now, thanks! I guess I'm just struggling to feel confident with chopping my strips into 16ths for the precision of .5mg decreases or 32nds for .25mg. If I wanted to go down to say 2.75 I think I'd do pieces of the strips for the 2 full mgs but then have some liquid prepped on the side for the more precise values. Definitely don't wanna lose anything.

Feeling good so far, today. Nervous about tomorrow and the next day. One day at a time though.. I'll make it.


Seven-

Thanks for the advice. I know it's an individual process.. I gotta start believing it though. I'll see how I feel as I go on. I guess that's all there is to do.. been reading up as much as I can. Thanks for the tip on slow weekends, I'll keep that in mind. I'm gonna look for your thread and check that out, curious about the jump from 1mg since I've never really adjusted completely to any dose, I figure I'm gonna have a complete shit time no matter where I step off for good. Sounds like you were having the same problems as me so I'll definitely have a look at your experience if you have one up here. I'm guessing you do (edit: found it, on page two. We share a lot in common as far as our road here looks and we're pretty close in age. Gonna dive in fully after I veg out on some Fallout)

Happy to be on the forum and receiving advice from you all. Gonna get back to this lovely family lunch. Having a blast with my cousins. They're 11 and 6. I lived with them for a while when my dad was messed up and I was a little younger and they were so little. They're kind of like my long lost brother and sister.
Last edited by Mare on Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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