Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby cheeps » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:04 am

If you really really really want to do ibogaine.....down the road....let me know via PM. SVDD is correct...it's not a real good way to kick. I do know of a few peeps that used it....mmmm, I think three. One was a fentynl user, that other two heroin. The fent user won....the others regressed.

I'd do it for shits and giggles but I can say that now....if faced with it.....yeah, my enlarged heart sez...whaaaat??
10 yrs on methadone
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:29 am

Speaking of crying...for me it’s been a while. Do you know how long it’s even been since I was really sobbing and in tears? At least 10 minutes, maybe even almost 12.

I’ve taken various synthetic and naturally occurring alkoloids about 8 times in my life. A few good, fun experiences and few pretty bad ones. A lot of it had to do with environment, who I was with, what we were doing etc. But I can definitely say that ship has long sailed. I don’t want some movie screen opening in my mind and reliving every negative experience from my childhood; priests - am I right? That might not happen but it has and could again and I’m not risking that 12 hour visit to hell.

I’m in this mid-level, depression leaning but still lead suit etc. withdrawal. I definitely fucked up going back on the benzos becasue I think I’d be more likely to take a shot at jumping to see how bad it gets. But I feel my benzo dose it still too high and I want to get it down so I can at least use them at resonable doses for relief if needed...’if’...ha ha ha.

Here’s a question...if you stay at a set dose...100% perfectly (taken every 24 hours, no bumping/spiking/making tea by boiling 300 empty suboxone foil wrappers and drinking it (yes, I came up with that one...evil genius)...anyway, would you start to feel normal, decently, even good after a long enough time line of stability? Most drugs work this way. Haven’t there been people that got down to .25 mg amd stayed there for a long time and ‘normalized’? By a long time I mean say 6 months or more.

Unless I’m missing something we only have 3 choices:

1. Taper to ridiculously low micro doses such as .03 mg and walk off (or what ever happens)
2. Taper until you’re just pain exhausted and sick of both the process and being in withdrawal purgatory, and at what ever dose that is - jump
3. Pick a target dose based upon vacation time, other obligations and responsibilities and what ever other factors effect your ability to deal with whatever comes and jump...and I guess this option would include a rehab situation.

I can’t think of any other options. There’s the option where I grow a pair and just stop taking it...hummm....I’ll get back to on that one. Cheep Cheep Cheep Cheep.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby CatsMeow » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:56 am

SDD I wish I knew the answers to your questions. I also sit around & ponder those 3 examples that you gave. I'm too far away from those low doses to even begin to know what I'll do.

I'm just going to keep tapering with as little pain as possible & see what happens. My plan is to get to that .03 dose. Maybe I will & maybe I won't & will jump sooner.

I hope someone else has some words of wisdom for you. I'm sorry you're feeling so awful. Hang in there!
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby cheeps » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:54 pm

The answers lie with the Brits. I think someone needs to do some research/reading on any U.K. Pain forums as they are using bupe at extremely low doses in pain management.

I believe this to be right and some of our former members are U.K. and may have mentioned this.

It's not on my to do list today though.

All I can think of is how American Drs have saturated bupe patients with massive amounts....how long, if ever, could it take to get relief in low numbers.


Ok....less Sub is more...we know that....but how much less? We've had many discussions about this in certain threads I cannot recall. (One reason I yearn for stickie power...)

Someone with some time...search the forum....less sub is more
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:44 am

I know the Euro brand is Temgesic. They use sublingual and IM dosages given in ug (mircrogram doses) only. The basic Rx protocol is 200 to 400 ug q12h prn. The largest patent dose is .2 mg. Drug incerts for physicians are termed ‘monographs’ and I posted the Temgesic monograph on my thread...if this helps.

As careful and precise as I try to be, it’s hard to handle and cut suboxone film and be sure of the dose you’ve created. This is a big deal when you’re trying to taper into ug dosing.

Some guy sells a vinyl template that has the cutting lines on it. Another guy uses geometry and triangles to make accurate doses. Another method I saw was interesting. The guy had a system where he cuts literally hundreds of .1 mg little squares. He would take 20 squares for a week, then 19, 18 etc. He put the cut pieces into contact lens cases, a very interesting method.

Cheeps put it best, the last thing BR wants to do is facilitate cessation. They flat out say, our intention is life-long ORT.

Let’s say there’s a segment of the population that’s better off a life-long sub users. Without it it’s just 100% they’re going back on the street for H etc. What happens when they need serious medical care, trauma, burns, renal colic, surgery of any kind? It such a confounding factor.

When I had my recent kidney stone the new anti-opiate criteria was even in the ER and I swear to you if I wasn’t a doctor and hadn’t said very key things I never would have received proper PM and general care. I was lucky. If you’re on 8 mg a day of bupe and present with coli or nephrolithiasis and don’t get the right doctor that understands opiate thresholds, antagonist pharmacology and the MYTH of respiratory depression (and you’re in the Emergency Department...hello) you’re screwed. All the ketorolac in the world won’t shut down the pain of peritonitis or renal colic. Most ED doctors know a lot of serious medicine but have no clue how to treat severe acute pain in a patient receiving ORT. And the first thing they always think...drug seeking addict. Anyway...I’m preaching to the choir again.

I wrote recommendation letters for this guy who was a friend of friend whom had just finished college and was applying to medical schools. He finished his residency about 2 years ago. He just opened 3 Oxycontin clinics. And I kid you not, he emailed me yesterday about he and I opening some more locations together. Yea, that’s a good idea for me...partner up into a string of pill mills. If only he knew.

Suboxone clinics in Washington and Baltimore are popping up on every corner. I think they have drive through service now.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby nomojo3479 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:04 am

Ya man, they (b.r.) are pushing sub hard as the solution to the opioid epidemic... but I don’t know if there is a solution.
I’ve been listening to a lot of david Simon (the guy who wrote the wire) lectures on YouTube. His premise is that since the de industrialization of the u.s. that upwards of 25% of the population is not needed to run the economy.
Obsolescence...
if I were just a bit more of a conspiracy theorist I would say the sub is a premeditated tool of the ruling class to subjugate, control and sterilize undesirables .
So mayb that wasn’t the intention... mayb it was purely about $, or mayb it was about helping people at first..
I just have no faith in the medical community to do anything positive for Me or my addictions.

My wife is always bugging me to go the dr.. for the life of me I can’t figure out what they offer that I can’t get easier and faster elsewhere.
Having worked at a number of rehabs as a young man, the aa model of treatment is a fucking joke not even followed by the founders of the program.. and as for sub, I don’t have to bother writing about the cons of that..

I guess it just bums me out, all these people on sub thinking it’s a solution to their heroin problem, it’s barely anything more than a transference..
god, I hope someday they will look back on opiate detox the way we look back at surgery (pre anesthesia).. (here take a swig if whiskey and bite down on this stick while I saw your leg off..).

Anyway, that’s it for my disjointed thoughts this am. Have a great day y’all
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby cheeps » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:50 pm

Mojo...I love you man. I love your thoughts. Aren't We are a wonderful cynical smart bunch. Would you run for office? It's either you...or I'll vote for Oprah.

Sometimes I want so badly to tell my dr the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'd like to see him become our resident sub is evil dr. Of course, subvdietdoc rules but I ponder on how to wake up the medical community but I stop quickly....that's not on my list today. There are better smarter peeps to do that here than I.

Our world is sofuckedup....one thing at the time. But I still think adding something to the water might help...or the air in the training rooms of sub Drs. Just wishful thinking.

I'm going to eat my veggies now.

Mojo....you got this and you tickle the shit outta me.
10 yrs on methadone
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Oxy free 12/06/14
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2017 Oxy taper halted
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby CatsMeow » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:22 pm

If these sub Dr's would at least (& I mean very least) use the COWS sheet to induct people. My Dr. just threw me on 16 mg & that was that. :spank: It makes me crazy to hear people on 32 or 24 mg's of this shit. That's just cruel IMO.

They should also warn each & every one that it's a short term solution & that the WD is going to be hell on wheels. 8 hours is nothing in the way of understanding this fucking drug. Sub Sux & Sub Dr's suck too. :gaah:

I like your analogy Mojo. What will we find out when we look back on this? :shrug: I'm almost afraid to think.
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:18 pm

Medical school is a trade school no different than going to school for heating and ventilation maintenance or auto repair. Medical schools have a uniform curriculum that varies 1% between schools. They have one goal...to prepare you to pass 4 national boards and a state board. 7 years after 4 years of college (and 2 more in my case becasue I did a masters degree to increase my chances and f getting a seat!). Anyway, pharmacology is a huge part and all the protocols taught are medically scientific but industry driven procedurally. When new drugs are approved to doctors in the field 99% of the time it’s some hot college ex-cheerleader turned drug rep that has been trained to actually teach the doctor about the new drug, present the supporting studies and most importantly how to prescribe it. And the more Rx’s written the bigger the bonus for the drug rep. John Oliver did a video on this and its spot on. I swear this is literally how all this works. And the AMA is worse than Washington as far as being a corrupt, money driven cesspool. I’ve seen drug reps that look like they just got off the stripper pole. Man those were good times...hahahah.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby CatsMeow » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:00 am

This is what I have learned since being inducted on 16 mg of sub. An insanely high amount for my opioid tolerance. I've seen those reps come into the Dr's offices many times. They are young, beautiful women every time. I just knew there was something up but I didn't know what.

I love John Oliver. He really knows how to get to the bottom of a situation. This "system" is really screwed up. When I'm done, I'm going to try to educate my PCP about subs & hope that I save those that come behind me.

Thanks for that information SDD.
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:39 pm

Mojo...check your PMs. I sent you something important.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby cheeps » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:45 am

10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper halted
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby nomojo3479 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:25 pm

Leave me alone Freddy!
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:40 am

How are you doing man? Are you holding at a certain dose or have you dropped? Just thinking of you dude and hoping things are moving forward for you. Personally, I can’t take much more of this slow tourture taper thing.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby nomojo3479 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:25 am

Yup.. I’m hanging in there.. I was up most of last night sweating in a puddle and puking.. I think it’s just s stomach bug my wife had a few days ago.. but man it felt a lot like precipitated withdrawal (it wasn’t)

I’m currently at .4 am and .25 pm.. that seems to be going ok I guess..

Sdd ur down to .12? That’s amazing.. how are u feeling? Any semblance of stabilization at the low low doses or is it just constant low grade sick?
Anyhow, congrats on .12 that is imho truly heroic to get down that low.... ur approaching the finish line.. and even if I’m a few months (or more)behind u, it’s still makes me very happy to see that it is possible.
That’s the biggest reason this site is such a godsend for me.. my depressive brain is always telling me how “impossible”. Tapering off sub is.... my only weapon against this insidious thinking is this site. I read about people with the same struggle who are beating it..
Subsux murders my best excuse to just stay on sub til I die.. so thank you, all of you that make this place
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:32 pm

If it weren't so uncomfortable and sick I'd laugh but my wife was up all night and let's put it this way...she had 2 exits with no waiting. Identical to your situation. My question is, in a few days will I be identical to you? I am so paranoid I'm actually wearing surgical gloves to make a sandwich hahah.

We all compare what dose we're on to where someone else is, and it's always with people who are on a lower dose. But people look at you making it all the way down to .65mg and are amazed and inspired, me included. The fact that you're not Ginger Pop, Lil Tony, Lucy or the hundred other people that started threads declaring their war on suboxone and their commitment to taper and disappear after a couple of weeks speaks volumes about your dedication and resolve.

You don't know it yet but you've already won. As time goes by (and that's a constant) your dose will lower and then one day it will be at zero, I am 100% sure of this. Before you know it Cheeps will be sending you dancing bananas.

You're no false flag...you're the real deal. You are tough and will handle what ever you have to and do whatever it takes to get the job done. You're gonna Seal Team Six the shit out of this and finish strong, it's apparent.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby cheeps » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:23 am

I think mojo will get a real life ass whooping from himself if he stalls. Mojo.....you DO have the grit and fire to get this done. Cynical, yes and I like it. I want to go to the bar with you. But you are committed and you will complete and beat this shit. I just know it.
10 yrs on methadone
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Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper halted
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby CatsMeow » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:02 pm

Mojo you're doing so great! So you're at .65? How long are you staying on each dose at this point? Are you able to stabilize when you drop? How long have you been under 1 mg? Sorry for all the questions. Being under 1 mg is darned impressive. That's where the real work begins it seems to me. Your receptors aren't even close to being covered. Does freddy fuck with you? I sure hope not.

Keep up the great work & thanks for letting us come along on your journey to sub = 0. It means a lot to me.
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby Subverted DietDoc » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:49 am

Hey Dude..I haven’t ignored your questions regarding a plant-centered diet, especially in the context of body building. To be honest I haven’t felt like doing much of anything lately. The next 2 weeks are going to be quite the ride for me and I’m focused on that, probably too much.

Let me start the dialogue a little at least. The entire concept of protein is way way over stated. I’m not saying you don’t need quality proteins to build muscle, and the requirements in athletes is higher. But the industry that profits from potions and powders, and of course the meat and dairy industries perpetuate myths for profits. This relates to both the quality and quantity myths. Full amino complement protein is found in adequate and abundant proportion in the plant kingdom as it is in the animal kingdom. Some of the greatest and most award winning athletes, including bodybuilders are vegan. It’s an easy thing to google to see the many great names and records of these elite athletes.

Here’s a tip of the iceberg type myth buster I’ll put in the form of a question:

Which has more protein, 100 calories of the highest quality top sirloin steak (zero fat) or 100 calories of broccoli?

Of course steak, right? 99% of people know that. But they’re all wrong. 100 calories of the best quality steak money can buy has about 3.5 grams of protein while the broccoli has 11 grams. And the quality is the same. But the protein from the broccoli doesn’t raise cancer risk, heart disease or stroke risk. It also doesn’t raise homocysteine and IGf1 and creatinine levels (all inflammatory bio markers).

There are now 4 times as many studies positively linking animal protein consumption to later-life chronic illness, degenerative and autoimmune diseases and all many forms of mortality than there are studies linking cigarette smoking to lung disease and cancers.

There are always going to be pro-carnivore camps, and these are very prevalent in the area of body building. But it’s all myth. Calories and the quality of those calories have more impact on health and well-being than anything else in our lives. Even down to orthopedic issues like the need for joint replacement caused by osteopenia from meat consumption.

The science is settled. We’re omnivores, no question about it. But looking at billions of people, tens of thousands of studies, and segmented populations with distinct regional dietary styles we know what is the best and healthiest source of calories for longevity and the lowest risk for developing chronic disease is, and the answer is plant-based food.

By the way, and you probably know this, serious bodybuilders (like top competition level) have dramatically shorted life spans and the majority of them develop significant degenerative joint disease and a host of other problems. But this doesn’t apply to the resistance trained fitness athlete.

I could write forever on this topic. But for now just start reading. Read a synopsis of The China Study. Read the works of T. Colin Campbell and Dr. Esseltein (both Olympic gold medalists). Joel Fuhrman (ranked number 1 male figure skater in the world and captain of the US Olympic skating team) and my new favorite site is NutritionFacts.org.

Sometimes the guy with a slightly smaller muscle mass is the stronger, healthier and more fit person becasue with animal protein comes more fat and more fat means more storage of fat so the bulkier guy that can’t even do more push-ups than the leaner guy is just another future heart attack where everybody says ‘but he was so active’. The majority of heart attack patients have cholesterol in the normal range by the way. Like I wrote...I could go on and on.

Anyway, I hope this wets your appetite to look into this further, pun intended.

Best,

SDD (the S comes off in 5 days by the way).
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 10 years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Jumped Off February 5, 2018 @ 0.09mg
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Re: Intro and taper (10 year sub user)

Postby nomojo3479 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:31 am

Thanks for taking the time sdd.. I can only imagine it’s quite an effort to focus on anything atm..

I will do some of the reading you have suggested..
I hope the next few days go well for you. Keep us updated if possible
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