My Taper Journal

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Dcleanist » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:10 am

I couldn't get lower than.7. To me the difference of agony between .7 and 3ml jump wasn't to much difference. Hell is hell. When my system bottomed out I jumped. I was just prolonging the agony.

Either way hang in there. Time goes forwards and your gaining ground. Like a parasite it fights more when being destroyed. Kill those bugs in your head dude. Every day clean is a day you never have to do again but the count with time must be settled. It's a celebration not a tragedy. Remember that in the back of your head. If you can't do this how is anyone else. What if it was your kid. How would you handle it. Tough love or watch and wait the pain kill them.

We with you dude. Time to earn your heavy wait. Chump to champ. Peace
The voice of reason is reasonably late.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:42 am

It's 2:00 AM and another night of sitting in the hot tub/Jacuzzi to try to soothe the RLS a bit. I took some Xanax and my bupe a little early. This was an effort to have at least some break from the over night pain and insomnia.

Taking bupe early (less than 24 hours apart) is a very dangerous move. It's the same as increasing your dose. But I feel it may be time to move the dose.

Taking it a couple of hours before bedtime (lately better known as helltime) might facilitate sleep and make it so when withdrawal does hit me it will be in the late afternoon when I can be more distracted.

I am pissed off by the intensity of withdrawal I am feeling. I just spent basically 2 years tapering. Almost a year to go from 16 mg to 1 mg, and then almost another year spent hovering around 1 mg. I would have thought there'd be more improvement than this. Of course I know if I went from 16 mg to 1 mg I'd want to die, but after a year on 1 mg I thought it reasonable that going very slowly from 1 mg to .6 mg wouldn't result in full-blown withdrawl like this.

Here's what I have done to get where I am:

16 mg to 1 mg over about a year
1 mg with some very short term jumps up but mostly at or slightly below 1 mg
.91 14 days
.82 14 days
.73 21 days (thought it might help as this has been a resistance point in past attempts)
.64 9 days and counting

Except for some very minor discomfort I had no other symptoms than insomnia until now. And I can't understate how bad it got and how quick it got this way. Around day 5 on my current dose of .64 mg (4 days ago) BOOM! Textbook withdrawal, like cold turkey intensity writhing around no peace level 10 withdrawl. It was like zero to one hundred. And my anger comes from having the reasonable expectation that all the tapering would have at least quelled this.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ < .5 mg/d
Alprazolam: Tapered off May 2016 - Started again October 2017 currently tapering again
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Lucy » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:28 am

I checked in too late to see your previous posts, but I really hope you are sleeping soundly right now.

After the last couple of weeks I'm not that surprised by what is happening with you. All I can make of this is that age plays an enormous role in how easily the body handles the drops in dose. Those drops you've made do seem pretty big from what I've read in the successful liquid taper threads. Those people were making drops that were smaller than the 10% range in order to minimize wds.

It just seems like this is where you were a few months ago and somehow you're doing the same thing again. Maybe you need to slow the taper down and go up something like .05 to a dose between this one and the last until you stabilize.

There was an odd fellow in some old threads here who was swearing by ibogaine. No idea how real any of that was though. I'm an optimist at heart and cannot accept that there isn't an answer for you somewhere. It's just a matter of finding it, and you're a very intelligent and knowledgeable man. I have every faith in your ability to come up with a workable plan to get you through this. Don't give up. I know you're feeling hopeless and blindsided by this right now but this suffering will not be endless.
Reducing from 32mg. Dropped from 26mg to 16mg 8th July 2017. August 1st 12mg.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:48 am

I wish you had kept your rants in here :mrgreen: but I can tell you that this last drop was too big.You should try only 10% drops . :gaah:

.064 to .059
.059 to .054
.054 to .05
And so on.

I'm on my phone so limited but you are doing this...You are. Moving your time is wise to sleep. :banana:
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:50 am

Hey Lucy:

1 mg to .91 mg = 9% reduction

.91 mg to .82 mg = 10% reduction

.82 mg to .73 mg = 11% reduction

.73 mg to .64 mg = 12% reduction


Average reduction over a two month period is 11% (9 weeks to be exact). To be clear, I took OVER TWO MONTHS to reduce .25 mg over 4 drops that averaged 11% each (after being on 1 mg FOR A YEAR). To go slower than that is absurd in the extreme.



If you tapered exaclty 10% and added a little more time for your 'body to adjust to each dose' (say 7 days) I just used an algorithm to calculate the length of time it would take to get to 0.06 mg (a common taper jump dose).

It's two years. It would take you two years to taper off of one milligram. And that's if you were flawless, no adjustments for symptoms to subside or other confounding variables. And if you stuck to the plan I laid out above, again with zero error it would still take a year and a half to get off of one milligram. And here's the most important part...you'd be feeling horrible withdrawal most of the time. As long as your taking some buprenorphine, no matter how smal, you are keeping the Mu, kappa and delta clan alive and excited and they will never down regulate.

You'll read it over and over again if you really look: all quoted and paraphrased: under x dose I just never got stable; it didnt matter how long I stayed on a very low dose it was still in withdrawal and if I went lower it just got worse, tapering may help to down from the bigger doses but does absolutely nothing at lower doses, tapering did nothing for my PAWS it's a myth so don't bother, I tapered to x and even though I went really really slow I was just suffering so bad I just jumped anyway, I felt terrible my whole taper.

Don't forget the pharmakinetics of buprenorphine. It's the inverse square law. The lower the dose of buprenorphine the more potent it is. At higher doses buprenorphine can be measured linerally against the gold standard of morphine. But at low doses buprenorphine is FIFTY TIMES MORE POTENT. So the receptor excitation from .5 mg of buprenorphine is exponentially higher than at 5 mg. Just read the monograph for Temgesic and you'll see EXACTLY what I am writing about. It's non-linear pharmakinetics, it's logo rhythmic, less equals more, a lot more.

Tapering doesn't work. Comfort meds are worthless placebos. Eventually if you get off of buprenorphine you're going into hard core withdrawal of the most painful variety. No free ride. Your soul will ache, you'll be making deals with god (or the Easter bunny, tooth fairy, same thing). And for 3-4 weeks you'll have no chance at peace and will not be able to stop yourself from moving and flailing every 10 seconds. No 'comfort med' will touch it. If there was a truly effective medication to midigate opiate withdrawal it would be world famious in 24 hours of hitting the market and every junkie doctor would be taking it. Oh, wait...there IS a medication that effectively treat opiate withdrawal that did become famious the second it hit the market...what's that medication called again? Oh yea, Suboxone.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ < .5 mg/d
Alprazolam: Tapered off May 2016 - Started again October 2017 currently tapering again
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:55 am

Do you think a clonidine patch would help? I don't believe in no comfort med will help. Your drops went up in dose instead of down. Fuck averages.

Flexiril and clonidine do help. :banghead: :banghead: :deadhorse:
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:58 am

AND you stayed on 1 mg for a year. If it takes another 6 months, then it does. You burned that year in limbo. Take this year and change it.


Quit thinking about what should happen and do what it takes to mitigate now.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:01 am

Btw...When you edit, there is a box at top of post that sez

One deleted this post cannot be recovered.

Use that box to delete entire post.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:06 am

Did you ever say you were on liquid? If you did I missed that. :oops:

no matter what happens and how...You are doing IT. I wish so much it could be over. I know your patience is wearing thin. ;) :( But you will do this. I have a link for you but have to get on another device.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Lucy » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:43 am

DietDoc wrote:Hey Lucy:

1 mg to .91 mg = 9% reduction

.91 mg to .82 mg = 10% reduction

.82 mg to .73 mg = 11% reduction

.73 mg to .64 mg = 12% reduction


Average reduction over a two month period is 11% (9 weeks to be exact). To be clear, I took OVER TWO MONTHS to reduce .25 mg over 4 drops that averaged 11% each (after being on 1 mg FOR A YEAR). To go slower than that is absurd in the extreme.



If you tapered exaclty 10% and added a little more time for your 'body to adjust to each dose' (say 7 days) I just used an algorithm to calculate the length of time it would take to get to 0.06 mg (a common taper jump dose).

It's two years. It would take you two years to taper off of one milligram. And that's if you were flawless, no adjustments for symptoms to subside or other confounding variables. And if you stuck to the plan I laid out above, again with zero error it would still take a year and a half to get off of one milligram. And here's the most important part...you'd be feeling horrible withdrawal most of the time. As long as your taking some buprenorphine, no matter how smal, you are keeping the Mu, kappa and delta clan alive and excited and they will never down regulate.

You'll read it over and over again if you really look: all quoted and paraphrased: under x dose I just never got stable; it didnt matter how long I stayed on a very low dose it was still in withdrawal and if I went lower it just got worse, tapering may help to down from the bigger doses but does absolutely nothing at lower doses, tapering did nothing for my PAWS it's a myth so don't bother, I tapered to x and even though I went really really slow I was just suffering so bad I just jumped anyway, I felt terrible my whole taper.

Don't forget the pharmakinetics of buprenorphine. It's the inverse square law. The lower the dose of buprenorphine the more potent it is. At higher doses buprenorphine can be measured linerally against the gold standard of morphine. But at low doses buprenorphine is FIFTY TIMES MORE POTENT. So the receptor excitation from .5 mg of buprenorphine is exponentially higher than at 5 mg. Just read the monograph for Temgesic and you'll see EXACTLY what I am writing about. It's non-linear pharmakinetics, it's logo rhythmic, less equals more, a lot more.

Tapering doesn't work. Comfort meds are worthless placebos. Eventually if you get off of buprenorphine you're going into hard core withdrawal of the most painful variety. No free ride. Your soul will ache, you'll be making deals with god (or the Easter bunny, tooth fairy, same thing). And for 3-4 weeks you'll have no chance at peace and will not be able to stop yourself from moving and flailing every 10 seconds. No 'comfort med' will touch it. If there was a truly effective medication to midigate opiate withdrawal it would be world famious in 24 hours of hitting the market and every junkie doctor would be taking it. Oh, wait...there IS a medication that effectively treat opiate withdrawal that did become famious the second it hit the market...what's that medication called again? Oh yea, Suboxone.


I understand the way bup is processed in the body in the microgram ranges. Those here who have done the liquid taper were very successful in avoiding significant discomfort. Yes, it's slow. It's not torture, but it will take a long time. Sindysun did it successfully. So did Justjules13 (they both used the same thread:)
http://www.subsux.com/viewtopic.php?t=2722

JustJules made 0.01 to 0.02mg drops around every 2-3 days once she got below 1mg and then started adding liquid to the bottle and taking the same amount of liquid. She missed days & felt nothing. It took her 5 1/2 months to go from 0.5mg to 0 but she did it quite painlessly.

I do believe it can be done if one is willing to take the time and creep down in dose without sending the body into a wd tailspin by making drops that are too big early on. It has been done here by more than one person. The lack of sleep and suffering is doing your head in. If I were you (and I will be in a year or so) I'd go back up 0.05 and stabilize, then follow the slow liquid taper. You've been going through too much torment for far too long.
Reducing from 32mg. Dropped from 26mg to 16mg 8th July 2017. August 1st 12mg.
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X

Postby DietDoc » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:56 pm

X

There was the option to delete my posts but it no longer appears as an option.
Last edited by DietDoc on Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ < .5 mg/d
Alprazolam: Tapered off May 2016 - Started again October 2017 currently tapering again
DietDoc
 
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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Dcleanist » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:58 pm

I would still pick 30 days of ouchy ups and downs then losing an arm or worse never having rds again. F that.

we all hit bumps and breaking points but that just means you're making room for better stuff. Kapa efficient. Peace
The voice of reason is reasonably late.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:43 pm

X
Last edited by DietDoc on Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ < .5 mg/d
Alprazolam: Tapered off May 2016 - Started again October 2017 currently tapering again
DietDoc
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Dcleanist » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:08 pm

Lol when your talkn billions witnesses disappear. Yeah I'm on sub witness protection. Like normal people give a shit. There to rapped up wondering why the double cheeseburger didn't make the dollar menu again.
The voice of reason is reasonably late.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:14 pm

"I did taper all the way down to 1/32 or .06 mg. Those were the days were I just did not sleep and the only way I can describe what was happening is that it appeared like a bad lsd trip, yet it lasted days instead of hours. Those were long days. I was restless and anxious beyond what is possible of a description based only on words."

Here's your microgram liquid taper experience, sounds so much better to me.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering @ < .5 mg/d
Alprazolam: Tapered off May 2016 - Started again October 2017 currently tapering again
DietDoc
 
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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Lucy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:06 pm

Have you tried Seroquel 300mg for sleeping? If that doesn't get you to sleep then nothing will. At this point, what are you thinking about re your options moving forward? Have you considered switching to a SOA and tapering off that? Id' even consider methadone at this point. It's risky but you can't go on like this (as you're well aware).
Reducing from 32mg. Dropped from 26mg to 16mg 8th July 2017. August 1st 12mg.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:18 am

There are peeps that are extra sensitive....just like the Fuckers that come here and say, "I don't understand why you don't just jump from 2 mgs. It was easy."

I'm going too DDs house if I don't get my job. He's going to pay me lots of money to with hold his meds and watch him squirm. I get to go too his drug store and dose him with all the meds he says don't work for him. And if that's true, I'll nail his ass right between the eyes with balpeen cow hammer. :mrgreen:

I'm much cheaper than a real detox and you get to sleep in your own bed. :blowme: :suicide:
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Psilver063 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:40 pm

Sleep is a mofo, even 70-80 days removed it still is a struggle. I still have to take 1/2 lunesta to sleep so I'll go 5 days on and 1 off. The one off I sleep like hell, the 5 on really aren't that great either. How much do you feel is psychological? It's always a question I asked myself. What is real versus what am I compiling. It's almost like an evil game of chess, trying to find the right move.

Have you given any thought to just jumping? I believe most people hit a point where they just can't go lower. I'm not saying you are there only you will know that. Once I got to the point of being uncomfortable I didn't see the point in dragging it out. I took the 10 days off work and by then the physical symptoms died down quite a bit.
OFF SUBOXONE SINCE 7/6/17. Tapered over 3.5 years from 8mg to .6mg and jumped.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:50 am

Hey dr diet....how's tricks in the big city?
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Wannabesubjumpa » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:53 am

Heh Dietdoc,
Wanted to take a minute to pop on your thread and introduce myself. My name is Tim aka wannabe. Still pretty new here and am trying to make a much better effort at reaching out to some peeps on here to increase my support network and not isolate myself. Anyways I really like a lot of the things you have been talking about on your thread, your a really smart guy and a wealth of information. Sorry to hear your having a tough time with sleep,hopefully it's gotten a bit better sence your last post!! Well don't want to highjack your thread just wanted to say your experience is helping me and hope to hear more from u soon..
T
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