My Taper Journal

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm

Posting a taper journal might help...I feel like I'm going to need it.

Over about the past 6 months I have reduced my current daily dosage from 16 mg (8 mg twice a day) to 1mg (taken once a day). This was not physically difficult but I had times of fairly profound psychological stress. I did/do have intermittent sleep disturbances and bouts of RLS. Of course my goal is to get off this drug with the least amount of discomfort. I have a general plan to continue tapering but after reading this site extensively I know I’ll need to be flexible. I also appreciate the need to be fluid in my approach because I have tried to taper several times before and obviously failed. The last time was one year ago when I got to just under 0.5mg/day. The mistakes I learned is that I reduced way too frequently and on a set, fixed schedule, not using biofeedback or acknowledging how I actually felt. I used tablets and not a liquid method so the dosages were very ambiguous. I went into full-blown withdrawal and the daily dose starting lasting less and less time before intraday withdrawal symptoms returned. I was also taking other meds (Xanax et al.) and my overall lifestyle had become pretty bad and I have since made improvements that should help.

I am scared but committed. I have 5 ½ boxes of 2mg filmstrips, much more than I need to see this though if I don’t f#@k it up, again. I will not be able to get anymore sub unless I find a new provider, something that I have done intentionally to add another layer of motivation and commitment. I have told myself that I will stop/jump before I go back up to a ‘therapeutic dose’. So it’s slow and steady or cold turkey, knowing this helps me stay on a taper. Fear is the ultimate motivation!

I am hoping that by committing to checking in along the way that I’ll feel some companionship, community and have a source of advice and support. And maybe, one day, my effort and experience could actually help someone else. That would be amazing.

My basic plan is 0.09 mg reductions every 8 days. I will extend this up to 14 days if or when I feel the need. When 0.09 mg reaches a reduction of 15% I am going to decrease the reduction to .045 mg. My next planned reduction of 0.09 (or 1 mm of a filmstrip) to 0.91 mg/day is in 5 days. I’ll stay at that dose for 8 days ad lib (which means AS TOLERATED haha).

One last thing: this drug follows exponential, nonlinear pharmakenetics, a fancy way of saying this – When tapering, one milligram is the halfway point between 16 mg/day and 0 mg/day. But don’t tell your doctor that, unless you’d like to be laughed at.

This is one tricky drug.

Best to All!
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:11 pm

You found the key...flexibility.

While you are doing your taper, spend time figuring out what kinds of changes need to happen along the way and after the jump. Life changes....ones to help you stay clean. Any ideas right now?
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:34 pm

OK..current plan and status...

Base taper time length interval is 8 days. I am taking 4 strips, cutting them in 1/2 and then trimming each 1 mg (1/2 strip) to the current taper dose.

Right now I am just under 1 mg (finally) at 0.9 mg or 10 mm and am heading into day 3 on this dose. I have 8, 1 mm trim strips which I will use when I get that dose (hopefully if I actually make it that far). So when I get to 6 mm (0.54 mg) I will not longer need any new strips because I have 'banked' the remaining doses I'll need. Of course I have extra in the likely event that I will need to stay on a dose for longer than it took to get there.

I go back and fourth between feeling confident and being scared shitless. It goes without saying that most opiate dependent people remain that way because of the pain of getting off of it. And I fit squarely into this category. I will say that I absolutely believe that SUBOXONE/SUBUTEX is the number one drug in the world that is the MOST LIKELY to keep people dependent. A few prominent reasons for this is are: there is no euphoric liability (you're not overly "high"), this drug is no only socially acceptable but people actually congratulate you for being on it as a responsible treatment, and finally, in the ultimate paradox...it's one of the hardest opiates to get off of. If I had only bought shares in Beckett Ruckheiser 20 years ago! Sorry about the rant.

This is supposed to be a journal of what will hopefully be my taper to get off of this drug. I'm sure that I will focus on that as I progress. For now I can say that all is calm. It would be nice if my penis would wake the hell up soon...I'm thinking somewhere around 0.5 mg...that's what happened last time I tried to taper. December of last year I got to just below 0.5 mg and blew it bad. I got really sick and had withdrawal on top of that illness and just couldn't take it. This is my third attempt and if I don't make it I quit quitting. I am committed, just scared and disgusted with the whole situation.

Cheeps in her wisdom asked what kind of changes will I make after I 'jump'...a great question but I can't think that far ahead right now. I'm just trying to make it through the holidays with not only all that stress but the stress of knowing I am staring down the barrel of a gun that's loaded with pain and agony...and it's pointed at my face. Other than this everything is great! Blhaaaa!
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:07 pm

Diet doc...read lemmings thread...he just posted...it's inspiring. You have a good plan just go slow and expect the shitty part to happen before the jump...yes, that's correct...going low and slow before the jump makes the time after acute detox, the first few months, better. If you can suffer thru this...then after the acute feelings subside...life is very much better.

Try not to obsess and drive yourself nuts!
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:12 am

Once again, thanks Cheeps. You're the only person communicating with me and I really appreciate it.

I admit that I am scared. I do not believe that there is anyway of thwarting significant discomfort, withdrawal and pain. No matter how 'low and slow' the method there is going to be pain. I don't know if it's just me getting older, the fact that I have not felt withdrawal in a long time, other unrelated but uncomfortable symptoms that I have or the feeling of recalling past experiences of withdrawal but I am really dreading it.

It may be purely psychological but I am going to remain on 0.5 mg for a longer time than needed. I have a theory that there may be some brain healing that goes on just below the subjective threshold and by staying on a lower dose in the absence of symptoms it may reduce discomfort down the taper road.

I am pretty sure, based on my past attempts, that I can make it to 0.25 mg before the more profound decent into the seventh circle of hell begins. I am trying to time things so I can go though this phase in the warmer weather where it's easier to go outside...maybe even hit a beach.

It's like planning to become sick. Like knowing when you're going to become debilitated. Most people can't relate to this...lucky folks. I know I am whining. I have it probably better than most I have read about here. Many of us are contending with raising young kids and working demanding full-time jobs while going through a divorce all while going through taper withdrawals. Brave heros all! My child moved out this month at 23 years old, I can take time off as needed, have a very loving supportive spouse...generally I have a good situation I need to be very thankful for that.

So today I hit the cutting board again and reduce to 0.8 mg/day. I make an initial 8 day supply but will extend the duration as needed. I am feeling for the first time some changes...but what's weird is that I am actually feeling BETTER. Very strange but I am laughing and crying and certain parts of my anatomy are 'waking up'. I have read about Burenorphine induced dysphoria and have been thinking I may have been feeling it for a while. I am depressed and less functional than ever. I don't know much about Bupe dysphoria but if I have it, it comes on very slowly and I probably didn't know it was happening. I am sure that the feelings I have are 100% related to my tapering...I can tell, I feel it, I just know it.

Well thanks...I need to start writing much shorter posts! I will say that knowing I have this website I feel like I am more accountable, like I don't want to fail for me and others. And I am grateful for that.

I am a guitar player and am also thankful that I can escape into that world. :shred: :shred: :shred:

I'll read Lemmings' posts, thanks for that.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Eyedotz » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:34 pm

Hey Doc,
You are doing just fine. I know tapering can mentally do a number on the ole noggin... It can become almost an obsession of questions you ask yourself, like: How am I feeling? Is this sub related? 'What' is my next drop? 'When' is my next drop? Supplements?.... on and on and on.

In other words, it is good to have a plan but don't hold yourself to a rigid schedule. Having patience is one of the most important factors in a successful taper. Do what feels right for YOU at the time and try not to concentrate on 'dates' or how you 'think' you'll feel in the future. I stayed at each drop for 10-14 days... my body told me when to drop. If you taper properly, you will never enter the 7th circle of hell. I found every subsequent drop felt the same under .5mg. It is ok to be afraid because this is a unknown, but don't let it drive your fear. I guarantee you, once you get into the swing of tapering and time passes, the fear removes itself and is replaced with strength and determination. It is an important part of the process, imo. Your mind and body will adjust together.

Sorry you felt like Cheeps was the only one replying to you! Most of us cling to the background until we have info that we can offer. This site is slow sometimes, but we all do our rounds. I have been reading your story. It is a great thing to journal on a thread. It will help countless others in the future. :thumbup:
Eyedotz Spotify playlist (EDM Detox Mix)
https://open.spotify.com/user/eyedotz/p ... luHItCVAiQ
13 Year Sub survivor - Jumped at .03mg after 9 month taper from 4-6mg.
JUMP DATE MARCH 18th, 2016

Forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know before you learned it.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Subblind » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:31 pm

Hey Doc,like Dotz said there are people reading your journal and hearing you... the chatter comes in waves around here lately, and it's the holiday season so that could play into it as well. Please keep what Eyedotz says in the forefront of your thoughts...she really slayed this dragon very successfully so her experience should be very valuable.
Keep up the good fight my friend.SB
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:48 am

Hey thanks all...really appreciate the shout outs and great advice. I love the concept of getting into the 'swing of tapering'...and that I may never have to enter what I referred to as the seventh circle of hell. I think the paradox of tapering is that although it can reduce the severity of withdrawal it is such a protracted process that it's easy to lose sight of the big picture or long view. As I write this I am sitting here chopping up my next doses and even now I am thinking, 'oh, I have a severe headache and insomnia why don't I just take a whole 2 mg film this once so I can feel better and a single one-time large dose won't derail me'. So far I have not done this but to be honest but it's always right in front of me. The lower I get the more 'sacred' my dose becomes and the more I acknowledge my progress and want to succeed. But I have been here before...at least twice and probably three times...not a glowing endorsement of my resolve. I am having bouts of sneezing now and its a very odd feeling type of sneeze...I wonder if this is related to reducing this wonderful drug?!?

Here's a nice thought: https://gp2u.com.au/static/pdf/T/TEMGES ... _IV-PI.pdf

Dosage and Administration/Indication for Usage: For moderate to severe pain, post-surgical pain and terminal pain: 200 ug to 400 ug sublingually every 6-8 hours, not to be used for more than 7 days due to dependance liability

This means for surgery and terminal cancer they advise 0.2 mg to 0.4 mg for sever pain! WTF? How the hell did the FDA approve megadoses of this drug?!?!
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:49 am

Cheeps!

I tried to send you a private message but I think there's a glitch...maybe due to the browser I am using. I mention this because I wouldn't post my question to you here.

You advised me that I should read 'Lemming's' posts. Since all advise from you is great advice, and considering I feel I need all the help I can get, I am going to. The only problem is I can't find a user by that name! I searched using different spellings and looked through posts but I am missing it somehow.

Can you please direct me? Thanks!

DD
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Subblind » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:12 pm

Try Lemming1...
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Subblind » Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:15 pm

It's in"personal stories" section Doc...
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:27 am

Thanks for the info.

I was reading a bunch of various posts today and I have that not so great feeling that the glass is 1/2 empty. Sometimes I look at the progress I have made getting to 0.8 mg and feel like there is a hint of light I can begin to see at the end of a really long tunnel. Meaning that .8 mg is far down the road toward getting free. But then I read posts that make me realize that I have made zero progress in reality because detox doesn't even begin until you get to .25 or even .1 mg! And even when you get off you have 6 months to a year of PAWS and associated symptoms.

I can say this...I was taking an average of 4 mg of Xanax a day and if you read the web sites on getting off of Xanax/Benzodiazepines there's zillions of posts about people saying even years later they're not 'the same' and suffering horribly from taking Xanax 8 months after stopping etc. and I had zero problems when I stopped. I had like one bad day and even that could have been from bad food haha. Point is everyone is different and this is all highly subjective.

But I am getting nervious. And I do feel like there is an ocean of taper-time ahead of me and most importantly...what ever symptoms/discomfort I have to endure is in front, not behind. Fack fack fack.

I am whinning I know. I read this person believed that years of sub use "stored" sub in his "system". No way. Changes in the brain are somewhat proportional to length of time on the drug changes but they are still reversible. Bupe is 100% H2O soluble and although is has a long 1/2 life it's out of the body in about 5 days. All the knowledge in the world don't mean poop when the pain comes. Time to listen to more Kurt Cobain.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:11 pm

Just thought I'd post this and it will hopefully become something I can look back on one day and smile.

I am going to see my fairly clueless doctor today. She has been putting a tremendous amount of pressure on me to stop taking suboxone, but not in a good way. It has been MY idea to stop taking buprenorphine. But now that I have begun to reduce my daily dosage this doctor is attempting to force me off at what she believes to be a "sub-clinical dose"...and that, to her, is 2 mg. To quote her: "once you are below 2 mg a day it is literally doing nothing and you won't feel anything when you stop". She be crazy. But this is not the point.

She believes that at todays visit I am going to ask for another 3 month/90 day supply. I know if I were to ask that she's going to deny me a new Rx and fully believes I am going to ask for one. She expects a big argument (this is based upon previous visits/phone calls etc). But I am not going to ask for any more!

She is so out of touch with this medication that she thinks that once you open the foil packet and cut a piece to a taper dosage that you have to discard the remaining piece! She believes you can not save pieces, which is why I have more than she thinks I do. So she thinks I am stopping at like 1.5 mg/day and that I have no more and that she is forcing me to stop. But I have a bunch because of course you can save pieces of film.

She actually thinks that it's all in my head and that there is no withdrawal at all. And she believes she is doing me a huge favor by forcing me to stop to prove to me that there will not be any withdrawal. This is so strange, that we know more than most doctors when it comes to this drug. It just shouldn't this way.

Well, at todays visit I am just going to tell her I don't need any more. I am not yet free of the drug itself...but as of 3:00 PM EST today I will be free of the power she lauded over me. And that will feel good.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Subblind » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:20 am

And you will be better and wiser for it...absolutely amazing how a person gets through medical school and is that fucking clueless about the shit she's peddling.i guess you can't buy common sense,and it's obviously not needed to pass your medical exams...how much stock you got to carry you over doc? It sounds like your confident you'll get along just fine without her,I just feel sorry for the poor schmuck who's gonna fill your vacancy...
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:48 pm

All I can say or think about your dr is :sick: :sick: :sick: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: where is our puking, one eyed :wtf: fucked up smilie when we most need it. I can't type much thing today. I've had hand surgery and I'm getting tired and making too many spelling mistakes even the iPad is giving me fucked up sighs and looks.

So tell us how it went!
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:52 am

:shred:

:banghead:

:suicide2:

Crash and burn. I might be able to recover my taper but I have been deviating and not staying the course.

How's you and your hand doing Cheeps?
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:14 pm

Ouchy as hell....I'm at the point where the cast drives me nuts but taking it off and doing anything gives a huge burning sensation. I've had it off all day and it's time to go find the fucker. But it's ok...at least I can take it off.

I rammed my hand into the wall earlier today... :roll: :problem:

So...you sound like you've had issues...what up? Don't tell me you've been beating yourself up.... :mrgreen: :gaah: Tell us what you've been doing...or what you've learned. 8-) 8-) Ain't no perfection in this place. :spank: :lol:
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:27 am

10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Hand Surgery 12/2/16
Oxy free 12/06/14
Back in PM 2016 bummer


Cheeps...Looks like you'll have to add the edit as seen above! Sorry to hear about all that.

As far as my situation...I have been feeling terrible and like a lot of 'us' I look for things that will make me feel better...or things I perceive will make me feel better. I was smoking again, which led to eating bad, which led to not exercising, which led to NSAIDS, which let to Xanax which ultimately led to going back up on sub. I was taking 0.8 mg when I started taking about 1.5 mg for 2-3 days and then went back down to my base dose of 0.8 mg then back up for a few days. This past deviation was the longest and highest...I went about 5 days and as high as 2.2 mg (I only went over 2 mg once and wow did I feel it...I got nausea and felt a bit sick from it, this was the first dose I felt badly from). Yesterday I found a piece from when I had just cut 14 days supply so I just took it so I dosed twice yesterday. To be honest sometimes I think the bigger does helps a lot with feeling better physically and mentally and sometimes I think it does nothing at all. Today I have vowed to take the next 14 days without any deviation at 0.7 mg. I am now worried that I will have to go through some bad feelings because of my deviations. We'll see. If I make it to Friday without any symptoms I'll be fine. Thanks for always asking.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
DietDoc
 
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:02 pm

Are you going to try to get off completely? Very glad you are off the xanax!
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:01 pm

Glad to hear from you dietdoc. Before I started my taper in earnest last April/May, I would bounce around under 2 mg, and I remember once having this interesting realization. I had been thinking a slightly larger dose would make me feel much better than I had been, and after I took it, I just felt even worse. It kinda did something to me, I guess, making me start to realize the fiction behind my belief that 'more bupe' was the same as 'more happy'.

It sounds like you are very clear about why you ended up going up in dose, and that has got to be helpful. I don't know if you are trying to get off it all together, or just tapering lower, but I'm hoping it goes easy and look forward to hearing about your journey.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Telling subs to fuck off since March 20, 2017
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