Looking for advice on when to jump

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Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:39 pm

Hello, I've been on subutex since it was reeled out, over a decade ago. I mostly kept to 4mg (but those jokers started me at 32!) I dropped to 1-2 mg over a year ago and then decided to do research when I realized I was not close to jumping. I found out about the liquid taper and started in April and after getting stuck at 0.3mg for 50 days, I recently inched down to about 0.285. I realize that might sound ridiculous, but every little bit of decrease brings on parts of my social anxiety and panic disorder that I haven't had to deal with in awhile so I am taking it slow!

I exercise every single day for about an hour to keep rls away and while I have clonodine and some benzos and some beta blockers, I try to not use them. I figure I will need them later. I take some supplements like tyrosine and melatonin, etc. I kinda feel like I am hitting the end of my taper just because I am not getting a ton of relief from my morning (0.1) dose or my afternoon dose (0.185) but that being said, I sure as hell feel something from them. It doesn't last for more than a couple hours but I certainly notice it. Is the goal to get to the point where they do nothing?

I have lurked around here and I really appreciate having a place to go where I am with people in the same situation as me.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby cheeps » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:06 pm

hey there!! Glad you unlurked. there have been several here before you that have had great success with liquid taper. Below are two threads that are written by a nurse who happened to work in a detox center. she had been on opies and sub for awhile.

start here...ill be back tomorrow...its beddie time for me!!

http://subsux.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2722
http://subsux.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2944
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:34 pm

Thank you Cheeps.

Today was my first day on 0.27 mg. I have been really hating (more so than normal) going to the store (or anywhere out and about) since dropping under 0.3 but I forced myself out for a couple hours without any comfort meds and I managed to do laundry and some other work, so that was good. I had almost convinced myself I needed to take a bit of clonodine to run errands, as social shit is one of my big problem areas, but I talked myself out of it.

I read through those threads you suggested and I thought it was interesting sindysun had trouble with some expired subs. I only have ancient subs to work with, since my doctor went out of practice around 2013, so I am hoping I might be on less than I think, if the stuff I am using isn't as potent! The 8mg pills I make my solutions with have to be 4-5 years old, at least, at this point because they're from before I started getting 2 mg pills from her...and just in case any one is thinking I must be getting my subs from an unauthorized pusher, don't worry, I haven't touched an illegal substance in over a decade, unless you count pot in Colorado on vacation, but state-law wise, that was also legal, lol. (Unfortunately I don't live in CO or I would be toking it up every night at 2 when I wake up kicking!) All my meds are old, even my comfort meds, but I am one of those nutcases who would take the smallest amount of everything possible and hoard the remainder for ages. I just wish I could have gotten some neurontin or flexiril from her before she closed up shop.
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Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:48 pm

Okay, since I have no one else to really tell this to, I am going to put it here. Feel free to ignore this bit of self congratulation, but I am feeling that gross, sweaty wd feeling and want to focus on something positive:

Here it is:

I recently stopped taking an emergency dose with me every where I go. I used to literally not leave the fucking house without a couple milligrams, just in case, oh I don't know, the end of the fucking world happened while I was at target and I couldn't get home for my subs..damn that sounds insane now. Also, I would worry I might have a panic attack and need an extra dose. Even when I started my taper and no longer allowed myself an extra dose, I still brought that shit with me everywhere.

I guess I am just feeling crappy enough daily now, that I got over it. Or maybe my brain finally realized that even if I do have a panic attack, I am not going to take any more sub, so it is pointless to bring it.

Either way, it makes me fucking happy. I hated having it on me...for some stupidly anxious reason I was always terrified someone would find it somehow...and then they'd know I was on it and never look at me the same.
Last edited by CheeZeeAnnDee on Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby Subblind » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:13 pm

That's a huge step leaving the house without any sub... I just returned from a trip where I took 3x more meds and put it in 3 different places(car included)just Incase I got robbed by the maids or I lost it.fucking insane...,I didn't take any extra really but I had 2 months worth of shit on me just in case.i didn't think much of it until I read your post,so congrats on that step your doing really good.what a shitty security blanket:..yuck...
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby cheeps » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:55 pm

Lolol at subblind....I can see you fucking around, thinking about that. I do the same...shit...I hide my shit here at home in case the fucking boogeyman comes calling. When I go somewhere, I take three times the dope and undies.

I get in a wreak...and die. They look at my shit..."yep, she was going out of town....there's drawers everywhere...lets find the dope now."

I can hear my kids saying this to each other. Then my stepdaughter will start canvassing the house for cash. I have been known to lose a few hundred on occasion. "John, you take the front two rooms, Pete, you take the laundry, bath, and back rooms....I got the kitchen. Nope....don't bother her bedroom...she never hides shit in there."

Andy...you get lower...it will be worth it. Are you doing any exercising? Now, I want you to read eyedotz thread...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3252
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:51 am

Holy shit Subblind, I would do the same thing! Although I may have been a little worse! Flying was bad because I was really good at imagining nightmare scenarios (its my talent, really) and I could picture the airline losing my checked bag and me losing my carry on. Never have I lost a bag, but I wasn't gonna take any chances. One time I kept a two week supply ON my person as I went through the scanners, even though I had some in my carry on and checked bags.

You know, maybe I was kinda right to be so paranoid. I mean, if I am having this hard a time on a slow taper, can you imagine the shitstorm losing the whole supply on vacation would be? Especially since my doctor doesn't prescribe anymore, so no phone calls for help.

I have only gone on one trip so far since starting the taper, and it was a little tricky with the bottle of liquid. Once I found out alcohol can really skyrocket the bioavailability I have only been putting about 12-13% alcohol in with distilled water, and I was worried something funky might grow in the bottle out of refridgeration, but that freaking bottle, with one single 8 mg pill in it, lasted me an entire road trip for over 3 weeks! That felt good. And it was nice knowing one pill could be a backup for a few weeks if something happened to the bottle of liquid.

Its nice to leave the house without sub. I can't wait to take a vacation w/o it!

Cheeps, I can relate to the seperate hidden stashes, but underwear? Maybe I am just a nasty fucker, but I don't bring much extra underwear on vacation, ha!

And I exercise everyday, assuming what I do is exercise, I run, in place, or around the house, often inside the house from room to room! I have learned to do this dorky run where I get my knees up but don't really go anywhere. I used to really run outside but once I hit a certain point in my taper it was too much. My immune system was/is shot I guess and it was just as added stressor. I could have just done short runs outside but if I don't move my legs for an hour, I will have intense, shitty rls. Restless limbs runs in the family, wd makes it worse!

And I read eyedotz thread, but I shall read it again, as you command. Mmm, success stories pair nicely with morning joe.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby Subblind » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:25 am

Funny shit,I'm on buprenorphine pills and on this trip I had 10 sub films hidden in the wallet too. I forgot I even had those until I started packing...it will be nice to never do that shit again...FUCKKKKKKKKK i hate every aspect of being on this drug.

Cheeps,your underpants all over I-95 is too fucking funny,holy shit...

And like Cheeps said,Eyedotz is a very good resource for you to explore.she is the master at tapering with minimal withdrawal...
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby Eyedotz » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:33 am

Hey Cheezee,
I wanted to introduce myself and say hello and welcome you to SS!!

I've been on a bit of a hiatus from the forum but I look in every now and then. You've done awesome by the way! Just by tapering the way you have has done wonders for making the jump/paws easier. I tapered all the way to .03mg but HONESTLY if I had to do it again I would've jumped at .06mg.... it seemed once I got to .03mg it was only physical torture because it felt like my body was trying to detox and I kept force-feeding.

I jumped by accident. I was trying to 'test' how far I could go between dosing and I just kept going...The other shoe never dropped and it actually was easier than my lower tapering was. There is 'definitely' an adjustment period when it comes to mental changes a couple months in, but you will come out of it a stronger person and realize how deep you were actually buried in a sub fog.

I am still learning everyday how to deal with stress in a healthy and productive way. The most exciting thing about my whole journey was to feel my natural endorphin's return...it takes a little while but music and fast walking/running got them kick-started for me....until then- 5 hour energy's!!

Please feel free to ask any questions, I will try to help! Good F'n job.
~Dotz
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JUMP DATE MARCH 18th, 2016

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:17 pm

Wooo, glad to meet ya eyedotz. Your threads/taper/jump has been incredibly helpful to me. Also, all your 5 hour energy reccommendations made me laugh! I love how much you loved them during your taper. I think you have been inspirational to me because you were also on it for so long. Something about knowing I am not the only person out there who has been on sub for over a decade and decided to get off it. Sometimes I read threads where someone will say they have been on it for five years, and a bunch of posters will say, 'wow, such a long time!' and it makes me cringe, like I am floating way down shit creek only to turn around and see everyone else has had the foresight to jump out miles ago. Ouch!

Today I am on day two of 0.27 and hoping I will be at 0.25 in a few days. I decided to look back over some old emails to my doctor and i was surprised to see I said to her "I am stuck at 2 mg" way back over three years ago. And I read another email from a year ago where I mentioned I was struggling to stay under one mg. I completely forgot how long I struggled to get to 1mg. Like I blocked those two years out. Is my brain totally fried? It sure feels like it, like I might forget my own fucking name.

How sad it has taken me since 2013 to get to here. But at least I am still working on it. Oddly enough 2013 is when my doc stopped practicing, and she always flat out told me I should just stay on subs forever. Maybe it took me doing all this on my own to have enough confidence to see it all the way through.

I have also noticed lots of folks saying to only take subs once a day. It blows my mind that so many people can do this. Even on 4 mg a day, I broke it up into 3 doses! I have never been able to take it once a day. Coming down to twice a day was harder than any of my decreases have been. When I was on 0.3 mg I tried to take it once a day and made it four or five days. I felt like shit until I dosed at noon, and then i just felt kinda high and gross, which was really not what I wanted. However the last couple of mornings I have woken up and dosing just didn't seem that important right away. Today I waited 2 hours after getting up, only 4 hours before my second dose...... So I am seriously hoping I naturally start waiting longer and longer to take my AM doses until I am only dosing around 1:30. That would rock!
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby cheeps » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:01 am

Andy....once your mind gets used to the fact that feeling like shit isn't going to kill you....and you learn from other peeps stories.....the fear subsides and the subcncious brain quits driving your actions.

We call the cravings/fear/the evil bastard...Freddy the fucker. Once you tame Freddy, he doesn't have the power over you like he has in the past. Once you get around like minded peeps that have been in your shoes...Freddy gets his ass beat down. The support here can be amazing in this regard. We all know how you feel...so many of us have beat Freddy's sly and evil suggestions.

When you become comfortable in a taper and lose the fear....you are able to switch up dosing. I have learned from many peeps here that split dosing in the amounts under .5.....(That being a half a mg)...is helpful. I used to say, dose once a day...but at this point you should listen to your body and override the mind. If you have a stress response and your mind is screaming but your body isn't...do whatever you can to NOT reach for the bottle. Your ability to push the morning dose further and further is testement that you can do it physically and mentally...so keep up the good work!

I'm throwing in some numbers here to make sure I know where you are. It will also help others that come read your thread.

So..
.50 is a half mg
.25 is a quarter mg
.20 is a fifth mg
.125 is an eight mg
.10 is a tenth mg
.08 is a twelfth a mg
.05 is a twentieth a mg
.03 is a thirty third of a mg

And what is really crazy is how the body can feel these tiny doses. So if a sub dr puts someone on 32mg? That is a THOUSAND times higher than a jumping off point of .03. Or if someone jumps at 1mg....32mgs is 100times more than the jump dose.

Isn't this crazy? Sub dr, "well, if you need to come off this, taper for a few weeks and jump at 2mgs"....righttttt!! :laughpound: :punchballs: :suicide:
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:10 am

Thanks Cheeps! My plan is to be on 0.25 in a few more days. I want to wait until at least then to make sure I am ready. And Freddie can suck it!

I also want to clarify something I said, in case it horrified anybody who is thinking of tapering. When I said I was "stuck" at 2 mgs for a couple years and then 1mg for another, understand that I was NOT pushing myself in any way. I had not done hardly any research, and was honestly happy enough just coasting where I was. For some reason I thought I was on an insanely low dose because my old doctor seemed to think I was. I kinda thought I'd find a magic cure like ibogaine or something and get to say, "Yes! I am all better! And wow, no actual work or pain was involved!" If I had done any research I would've realized that I still had a long way to go, and ibo ain't gonna break a sticky fucker like subs, and hard work and pain are a part of life, on or off drugs.

So please anyone who is thinking of tapering, don't think it's going to take you three years, unless you want it to. Once I actually decided it was time and did my homework, I went a lot faster even though I am still "taking it slow". I was on 1 mg at the beginning of May and now I am on 0.27. Not fast at all, but not years like my other post might have implied.

I really wish I had found this site way back in 2013, but I ain't gonna dwell on it. Full fucking steam ahead.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby Eyedotz » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:45 pm

I had the SAME thoughts with 'getting' below 2mg back in the day. Calling it 'just coasting' is perfect! I 'attempted' to taper one time (not seriously) in my maintenance a couple years ago and got to 2mg and whined I couldn't do it and promptly shot back to my comfort zone of 4mg. Once my mind was set....2mg became just a number and everything subsequently lower..... became the next number.

I can honestly say if my addiction center didn't close I still may be 'coasting' down Reckitt Benckiser Highway avoiding every rest stop. I was perfectly content with my little happy pill every day until a wrench was tossed in my poor little delusion of what happiness could be. I am awake. Now, I smile that I can go to bed at night and wake up in the morning without the tangerine strychnine attached to my lower lip.

Just keep plugging away. You are so close. Every drop you take now should either feel exactly the same or easier. I think because you did this taper as you should, you will be a great addition to the 'post sub club'....Yep, that is a thing. It's been here all along...I just gave it a name! :smart:

~Dotz
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JUMP DATE MARCH 18th, 2016

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:52 am

Yes,Subzero, it is funny how fast the days flew by on subs, and I always assumed I would taper all the way down one day, but it was just never today. Even though my doc went out of practice years ago, it was the kick in the ass I needed. That is when I started to really push my limits, but ever so gently at first, lol. I think the first thing I did that helped was becoming conscious of when I felt the need for more subs...for me it was social shit, and visits with my family. One time I got down to 0.75 and went to stay with my family for a couple weeks... I was over a mg when I got back, and I am a stubborn fucker and intensely hard on myself, so for me to go up from my 0.75 was a mega revelation to me. Gotta learn them triggers, right?

So I figured there has to be a healthier way to deal with family visits.

Like drinking! :cheers-smashed:

Just joking (kinda) Actually, I just saw my family again recently and all went well. I was on 0.3 mgs and it was totally fine. Bizarre. Perhaps it has something to do with only being there less than 36 hours 8-) Like I said, gotta learn then triggers!

Gah, I feel like I am both very exhausted and hooked up to an electrical outlet. I am waiting until I really need my AM dose, and I just don't have to have it yet. I actually managed some emails and this post without taking it,which was honestly unimaginable to me just a couple weeks ago.

Sub-zero, I will be sure to let you know when I jump because I will be waiting by my mailbox for my post-sub club membership card!
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby cheeps » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:31 am

Andee.....that edotz that you were replying to.....but you get a hall pass because you're new here! Sub zero is sitting on his ass in Cincinnati. Edotz is is damn near Canadian being from the great state of ~~oops, I shoved my foot in my mouth....all the way to my ass~~, Maine.

I'm in NC....where hurricane hermine is pissing on us....glad she's just a measly tropical storm but I'm sorry for those who get flooded. It's one of those kinds of storms.

Hey edotz! Do y'all ever get hurricanes from us?
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:49 am

Oh fuck, I knew that! My fingers didn't, but I did! This is what happens when you spend hours reading posts online, I have read certain names so many times, they have all jumbled. Please forgive me all, today I decided to really push it and have waited and waited to take my AM dose.

Which is turning out to be difficult.

What do you guys think about slowly decreasing my AM dose and putting that amount onto my PM dose. It is the same amount per 24 hours but I am not sure I like the idea of my PM dose going up. OTOH, maybe I could wittle my AM dose to 0 easier?
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby cheeps » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:33 am

I think whittling is a fine idea....the main thing we say is don't spike. Once you've made a commitment....try to wait and push thru it....even though you are in the smaller doses and can feel it going away....push yourself to make tiny drops every 5-7 days. If you still feel like crap after day 7, then stay on it a few more days.

This is the time period that patience is hard to come by....but you've worked so hard to get this low and feel most of the crappiness before you jump....it does help to get as low as you can with the way you have done it. Sure....you might feel like saying Fuck this SHIT and jumping....but try not too. Homeostasis is what you need to concentrate on. Get the body as stable as possible.


How is your anxiety level and sleep?
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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby Eyedotz » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:54 am

Dude, it's cool! You'll get everyone's handles down eventually! Sub Zero is good people anyway....no prob being confused for that guy! As far as dosing goes... I split dosed until there wasn't a choice anymore. Stupid little eyelash pieces were so small that I ran out of ways to cut them (.03mg). FOR ME: I found at lower micro-gram doses like this that I could split into 3 doses throughout the day. Sub at these doses ONLY seemed to provide symptom relief and not much else. They act like short acting opiates at this dose. I no longer experienced the 'mental relief' they provided anyway.

I would take my daily dose and split in half.....take the first half and split into 2 parts. I'd take these 2 parts spaced throughout the day. I would take the 3rd larger part before bed so I could sleep ok. Hopefully you understand...sounds weird reading it.

Splitting in smaller doses will help you mentally (because you won't obsess over 'when should I take my dose?') and you'll have less symptoms throughout the day. At least, it worked for me. As you get lower in your taper...the relief is minimal and you start to realize that it really isn't doing shit anymore so you stop thinking about it all the time. It makes it easier to start dosing less times during the day. You'll know when you get there.

.25mg is still pretty decent relief so you have some time before it starts being 'non-essential' mentally and physically. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I see nothing wrong with splitting your dose as much as you need in the micro-gram range as long as you don't spike and stay at your determined daily dose. I am of the opinion, that it keeps the sub more level in your system because you're not either in 'withdrawl-y mode' or 'feeling relief' mode....you are kind of in the middle and you stop constantly thinking, "how am I feeling?" Hopefully that makes sense too!

Cheeps: It 'appears' we may be getting your little shitstorm up this way...although most likely it just wash my car for free and knock my power out for a little extra love bite (so I'm fucked into the caveman days screaming 'where's my HBO!!'). We mostly get blizzards here. Our weather can be shitty but we are all well equipped to deal.
I am on the southern beautiful rocky coast.
~Dotzy

:blowme: PS. FUCK YOU SUB
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13 Year Sub survivor - Jumped at .03mg after 9 month taper from 4-6mg.
JUMP DATE MARCH 18th, 2016

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:01 am

Cheeps,
So I took 0.08mg about an hour ago instead of 0.1. (How in the fuck is it possible I can feel it? But I can! Ridiculous). My plan was to take that missing 0.02mg and add it to the PM dose but it kinda feels wrong now, like I would be spiking. I was going to wait a couple days to drop to 0.25 but now I wonder if I should skip that 0.02 all toghether. It would drop me down to 0.25 today.

Honestly I feel fine to try this, but give me ten hours and maybe not, ha.



Looking at my notes (god, I am a nerd), my sleep was very broken for four nights before last night. I was waking at 2 and flopping and kicking for so long after that my face was getting pillowcase-burn! :oops:

My sleep just finally got better last night but I did drink valerian tea (is that technically a comfort med?)
Last edited by CheeZeeAnnDee on Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Looking for advice on when to jump

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:05 am

Eyedotz, Thank you!

I might just try and stabalize on a little less in the morning...the only reason I was thinking about stopping the morning is because I was suddenly waking up and feeling...okay. It was weird, and I thought it was a sign to try and stop the AM dose but maybe it was a sign to keep doing what I am doing!
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

Hozier-Arsonist's Lullabye

Telling subs to fuck off since March 20, 2017
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