72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:12 pm

Hi Patrick, yes I was like WTF is he talking about. Got it. Congrats on being off sub for over 100 days plus.
Seems like you are doing well with some PAWS thrown in. I also feel the drug companies don't want people to know the real SE of sub, detox, PAWS, then later on. You have all this info at your hand and can't find it. Anything that has to do with the brain is difficult. To know the info and be unwilling to share it should be against the law. Information is power.
You continue to do well with working, going to the GYM etc. Moving forward no matter what.
Congrats,
Tia
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby yup. » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:51 pm

Patrick,

Sorry I haven't posted much lately but work and life has been busy. Congrats on staying off subs and making it this far. You're right that the internet is filled with people posting the extremes of quitting subs. I had a horrible time of it but I also jumped off 8mg. Yes, that was stupid but here I am, almost 300 days off subs, and I couldn't be happier about it. You'll get there and be thankful you did. I am.

Just keep it up and don't stop. While life isn't perfect at nearly 300 days clean I can say that I like the way my brain and body function way better than I did while on subs or any opiates. It's just a different way of perceiving the world and dealing with whatever comes your way. It's not easy but I like not worrying about if I have my drugs for the day and all the other bullshit that goes along with being on that crap.

I hope this finds you well. Take care and keeping moving forward. :-D
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Spiritual_High » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:29 am

Hey suboptimal. I was pointed to your thread by cheaps and subster because they said you talked about the side-effects from suboxone more in depth (I have a lot of emotional/mental side-effects in addition to a few poignant physical ones0. First of all, congrats on getting off!! We are the same age (I"ll be 30 at the end of the year) and I am getting off this shit too soon. I am at 2.5mg right now!

Your article about the biochemistry of buprenorphine and the kappa receptor is very interesting. I read an awesome article on that Doctor Scanlan (sp?) in Florida who detoxes people off Suboxone and is not afraid to speak up about his lukewarm attitude towards the treatment. I did a quick read through of the article again (I have a printed copy of it out which I travel with and have the &$%^$ higlited from lol)

He has noticed that people who are more prone to being depressed than anxious keep themselves on a higher dose of suboxone. Since antagonizing them kappy receptors is appartently stimulating (but not in an anxiety-way) it works well for depressives. On the other hand, anxiety-prone people like myself do better on lower doses since the stimulating effects can be too much. Makes sense as kappa agonism can exacerbate depression (the study you mentioned resulted in that too).

It can be difficult for me to figure out just what exactly these opiate receptors do as even the disctinction between stimulating and anxiety-provoking confused me and still does in a way. Anyways, another interesting thing in the article was Dr. Scanalani's mention that sub withdrawal is "bi-phasal".

Basically, the first part of the withdrawal which last about 10 days is mu-related withdrawal (you get the classic opiate symptoms). What makes suboxone unique though is this: the second phase of the detox is related to bupe's effect on the kappa receptor. The doc believes that is why he (who has his own sort of "specialty" in tapering patients off suboxone via damn near lab-like monitoring of the process) notices that the withdrawal symptoms sort of change. In this second phase the patient begins to feel more depressed, anxious and fearful. Interestingly enough, he says that there are a few days in between the mu and kappa phase where the person actually start to feel MUCH better, like they're in a honeymoon phase or something. Interstingly enough, I think I have noticed in stories I've read and stuff where people after a couple weeks suddenly say they feel much better, and then, out of nowhere, BAM, they realize they're not out of the ballpark yet.

Anyways, I find this stuff fascinating. One more thing. Salvia Divinorium is a kappa-agonist. And Salvia is a hallucinogenic (as much as I hate the use of that word, scientifically, it is that). It causes depersonalization. Basically, and I think suboptimal you touched on this too, researches looked for a kappa-based analgesic but found that it caused hallucinotary effects (amongst other issues like increased urination which I have found to be a symptom as I decrease me dose). So basically, the kappa receptor can be psychedelic.

Which brings me to this: when I first got on Suboxone and then for the next year and a half or so I would sometimes abuse it hardcore to the point that I would take like 5 8mg strips or something. And I remember feeling so incredibly weird. Literally like there was a sheath over my brain and it was sucking/pulling out the emotional chemicals. I most notably felt like I could not feel. In fact, I felt depersonalized. The thing is, if kappa agonism causes depersonalization, then why would my personal experience of extreme kappa-antagonism (basically taking a massive load of suboxone) cause me to feel depersonalized?

Perhaps, it has to do with something about the norbuprenorphine being a partial kappa agonist. But bupe converts into norbuprenorphine, which takes time. And I felt this weird depersonalized/emotionless/catatonic feeling after taking the massive dose of suboxone.

It also made me feel anxious.... but not in a mind-racing way. In fact, completely unlike that "thinking of a zillion things at once, frantic, flighty" anxiety. It was more like this PROFOUND sense of anxiety, this PROFOUND sense of inquietude, of disconnection. Yes, most notably it was a sense of disconnection. Which is what depersonalization feels like. So I don't really know. What is remarkable though is that I had a symptom of kappa-agonism, the depersonalization, when in fact I was antagonizing the receptor, so perhaps I just cannot find an accurate description of what that feeling felt like other than "depersonalized". You would think it would be the opposite of depersonalization since I was doing the opposite of agonizing it.

But maybe the depersonalization spectrum works on a dynamic spectrum rather than a dualistic continuum (philosophy major here lol).

Sigh, if anyone is still reading, this is more complex than I thought it would be to explain. So I'll make an anology. Say we're looking at "affect". And in this sense I mean affect to be the level at which someone is happy or unhappy. So to make a crude generalization if we reduce affect itself down to being influenced solely by the mu receptor we can say that the more agonized it is the more euphoric you will be. And the more antagonized it is the more dysphoric you will be. IN other words, affect lies on a a dualistic continuum. The more you press the pedal the more euphoria, the more you hit the breaks the more dysphoria. The opposite of dysphoria is euphoria. It's dualistic. The "mode" or "category" we're looking at here is affect, and the directionality of affect is either towards euphoria or dysphoria (or neither, which would be some feeling in the middle).

Going back to kappa and depersonalization. My argument is that the relationship between kappa and depersonalization is not dualistic. The more you hit the pedal (agonize) the kappa the more depersonalized you feel. Yet, the more you hit the breaks (antagonize) the kappa receptor the more depersonalized you feel as well. You WOULD EXPECT that the more you hit the breaks on the kappa the LESS depersonalization you feel. In this case, the "mode/category" we are looking at is "awareness" (I do not know what categorical name I would give to that which depersonaliation falls under so I simply call it "awareness"). The directionality points towards depersonalization in both ways. While when talking about the "mode/category" of "affect" we had two directions, one towards euphoria and the other towards dysphoria.

Perhaps though, my framing of depersonalization is completely wrong. Maybe, the category is depersonalization itself and there are two different "flavors" of it. Perhaps there are different kinds of depersonalization (a salvia induced agonistic one where you are more aware in some sense and can LEARN something from it in the psychedelic sense, or a bupe antagonized one where you feel less aware/catatonic overall). So maybe it is like the mu/affect analogy and is bi-directional (or simply put, has directionality, key word, "di", like in "dipole" lol). So maybe, agonizing the kappa receptor produces a stronger depersaonliation but one which is psychedelic. While hitting the breaks on the kappa receptor produces stronger depersaonlization but one which is catatonic. Analogously, with the "affect" categorization, the more you agonize the mu receptor the stronger the affect but one which is euphoric, and the more you antagonize it the stronger the affect as well but one which is dysphoric.

I have to get on with my life here lol. Anyways, if that makes any sense. I do think biochemistry is like one of those things where the more you look at it the more complex it gets. A big high-five to anyone who got through this lol. Seriously I tried my best to explain given the fact that I could probably spend hours editing this to make it clearer.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:04 pm

Hi Patrick, how are you doing?? I knew you SH would hit it off and I hope you don't mind that I sent her to you
Very interesting analogy. All the technical stuff just basically says you're fucked from this drug and it's a bitch to get off. But you did and I hope you are doing well. SH, hoped that also helped you. No matter how it is broken down, it takes guts, strength and fortitude to get off. Understanding what you posted is one thing, but actually doing it is another no matter how you word it, dig?
Peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Spiritual_High » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:13 pm

Ouch Tia! "hope you don't mind I sent her to you". Lol, I know you mean well but you totally sound like my older bro! ;) even I know I'm a bit of a handful lol sometimes, with my super long posts and winding mental explorations I know where you're coming from. Much love :)
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:19 am

I find that the moment I have a stress response from an anxiety provoked situation, my thoughts become what I call "doomsday". Yup has explained it many times in his thread. It is a feeling of extreme dread and there are feelings of "the world is shit, why are we here and why care about anything, I'm on my way out, who cares? I'm fucked, what's the point in living." It's an uncontrollable feeling of crushing depression. It is not something we normally feel, but I think that the down regulation of the kappa receptor instantly informs the emotional core of the brain to freak out.

I believe the actions of these brain chemicals are responsible for the depression a person feels during the whole process of detox and recovery. I believe the more sub a person has been exposed to somehow affects their emotional state by intensity and duration of depressed mood. It has to be the kappa receptor and the interaction of the brain chemicals that exacerbate this.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Spiritual_High » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:54 pm

Ya Cheeps there is definitely a biochemical link to it. NO way is it just mental. Being a woman I'm sure you can relate! Especially when I was in my teens when it would be my time of the month the depression mixed with anger was borderline intolerable. I remember being in college and during those few days before the flood lol I could feel the rage chemicals coursing through the ends of my veins... like literally. THen when finally the gates opened the relief which followed was amazing. I went back to my old self. PMS makes you feel like you're going nuts.

At least we can take comfort in knowing it's not a question of attitude or belief in god or some bs like that, it's neurochemical. I do believe though, that our attitude can help facilitate the healing because meditators kind of do that with their brain.

Would be awesome if they developed meds to help taper the kappa receptors back to their normal state! Especially since the kappys don't make you high.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:21 pm

Hey SP, you know I didn't mean anything about what I posted. No way would I say anything to hurt someone.
We're good and thanks.
I also liked what cheeps posted. I really believe that since I was on 32 mg of subs, have a hx of depression and had a hell of a time with depression during and after detox. Different type of depression if you know what I mean. Love to learn new things. I know many other people have had issues with depression too
Thanks for the info
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:16 pm

Hey All,

Sorry for lacking on the posts. Been really busy etc.. Great responses, and I want to write in more detail when I have the time. I have a lot of thoughts I want to get down..

Still fighting the good fight, going on 7 moths.. Wanted to get that out there for anyone in the early stages who thinks my drop off from posting might be due to my going back. I'm still here bitches, and sub free! I'll be in touch soon.

-Patrick
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:27 pm

suboptimal wrote:Hey All,

Sorry for lacking on the posts. Been really busy etc.. I'm still here bitches, and sub free! I'll be in touch soon.

-Patrick



:lol: :lol: :lol: love it!!! 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:43 pm

P, this bitch is glad you're still around and not using, ye ole bastard :laughpound: :popcorn: :boobshake:
Peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:47 pm

Hey All,

Again still here and sub free. I am losing track of time but going on 8 months.

Sorry again for the lack of posting. I am doing fairly well. Still struggling with some issues for sure (still lack energy often, depression, anxiety, and lately my neck has been super stiff, actually for like the past month). That stuff aside, I'm still fighting the good fight and it isn't anything I can't deal with.

I don't think I'm going to post too often on this thread (obviously). I will give the periodic update because I think it's important to show people just starting out that it's possible. I hope to post more on threads for people just starting the journey at this point.

Life isn't great, but it's manageable. I am better than I was at 3 months, and hopefully will be better at a year than I am now. All I can do is keep going forward because I sure as hell ain't going back.

Cheers!

Patrick
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:35 pm

Hey all,

Just wanted to check in quickly to let you all know I am still sub free after over two years now (hard to believe it has been that long). It is possible people! Not always easy, but certainly possible.

If anyone has any questions about my stages feel free to ask in PM or otherwise.

PS who stole my user name with a dash between sub and optimal? How dare you sir? How dare you indeed? (said in my best old English accent).
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:30 am

suboptimal wrote:Hey all,

Just wanted to check in quickly to let you all know I am still sub free after over two years now (hard to believe it has been that long). It is possible people! Not always easy, but certainly possible.

If anyone has any questions about my stages feel free to ask in PM or otherwise.

PS who stole my user name with a dash between sub and optimal? How dare you sir? How dare you indeed? (said in my best old English accent).




Patrick, ye ole chap!! Two fucking years!!! That's pretty damn awesome and you are truly over the sub humps!! Everything now is everyday living!! No more wondering if sub has caused this or that! The indeterminate questioning and the "will I ever be normal again" is over and dead!


Yeah man...you are done!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Thanks Cheeps!

Good to see you are still around fighting the good fight!

Yes, it feels good to know that all my neuroticism and weirdness is purely my own biology at this point lol.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:13 pm

suboptimal wrote:Thanks Cheeps!

Good to see you are still around fighting the good fight!

Yes, it feels good to know that all my neuroticism and weirdness is purely my own biology at this point lol.




I'm sure I could appreciate it IRL ....it takes a brave soul to bare all here....like it or not...you are in that club! :rofl:
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