72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:31 pm

Hi P, good for you and ditto to what cheeps posted. You are having some PAWS symptoms but continue to keep going and fighting to rid your life from drugs and subs. I'm also curious as to what info you read to know what the next step was while detoxing. Your story will help a lot of people.
Peace,
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:07 pm

Hey guys, thanks for the replies as always.

Closing in on 100 days here. Not really keeping strict track as I was, but count every couple days..

Things are okay. I decided to cut back on the caffeine. I drank coffee this whole time; two cups in the morning and one around mid day. I figured it was a give and take, my energy was so low I needed something to help get me going but I knew it was making other symptoms worse like sweating, anxiety, and my stomach. So, drinking green tea instead except for a cup in the morning..

My symptoms are a bit less up and down and slowly getting better. Very slowly. At night I still get the restless legs sitting on the couch. Really unbelievable how long some of this stuff lasts. My pupils are still super dilated at night when I brush my teeth and look in the mirror. Uncoordinated heavy feeling comes and goes. Some days are better than others.

I am also dealing with the mental stuff, obviously. I isolated A LOT on subs and now that I'm off I'm finding I don't have much of a social network. The friends I could call are still junkies, moved, in jail, etc. I still have a couple friends around but I don't want to blow them up just because all of a sudden I decided I want to make an effort again.

To answer your questions, I did some reading on different forums after I was already on subs. When I first got on them they weren't real well known to most, or just starting to be.. In fact, I was my Dr's first sub patient. There were certainly online forums then (way back in 2007 lol), but not like today and I didn't use the computer much). In the end I made the decision to not read too much during this process. I decided this because I didn't feel I could trust most posts on most sites. Many of them tended to raise my anxiety levels. I just thought that in the end this was something I was going to have to do myself, which it was in a way. I was just going to listen to my body and not go back no matter what. I didn't find this site until after I was off for about a week or so.

I also read what I could in journals and medical books which I have access to. All I found out there is they don't know shit about what it takes to actually get off subs. The "bible" of pharmacology books stated that withdrawal "lasts 10-14 days and is milder than full antagonists." haha. wow.
User avatar
suboptimal
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:40 am

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:51 pm

Hi P, as you have found out the medical profession knows shit about subs, what it does to the brain chemistry, how to get off and what it actually does, except keep you out of WD's. you're doing everything you can, first by educating yourself to the best of your ability. Due to the lack of formal side effects we who have been here for some time know what it does. It fucking sucks to get off subs and will be the hardest thing you have ever done. It is well worth it but it takes time. Patience is something you will have to learn as it is a slow process and tedious. . You will be very bored with the entire process as it moves at a snails pace. You've already been through the physical symptoms of withdrawal. The rest is mentally. Have you read Ratches introduction page? It''s a good read and will tell you what to expect, time frame, PAWS etc.
Many people had to cut their caffeine out or down due to the side effects. Can really mess with your stomach. Imodium will help with those symptoms. In this case it is not used for diarrhea(maybe some), but help calms the stomach.
Energy levels will be up and down. Sometimes referred to as the "Lead Suit". One day you will be ok, then the next day you may have difficulty doing an easy task. Isolation is very common at first. You may not want to be around people or social.
All of this is normal as your body starts to heal itself from the toxins of subs. Believe when I say it blows and takes time. What do you have 3 months off subs, Most all symptom will be sub related. Riding your body of this evil soul sucking drug. Drink a ton of water and be as active as possible.
Keep coming back and more suggestions will be given. It takes time, but well worth it in end. You can do it,
Peace
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Steph1850 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:12 am

Good job on getting off sub using the generic pills, that ain't no easy feat. I had to switch to films and it's really helped me regulate my doses with tapering.

Don't feel bad, I also got back on subs 30 days after going to detox for 9 days. I was taken off 2 mg of sub in detox and knowing what I do now from reading on this site, I was just feeling like crap from the sub. I should have waited but I didn't know.

Keep going, you'll feel better soon from everything I've learned!
************
Tapering since July 2015. Jumped on 9/21/16!
Steph1850
 
Posts: 337
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:14 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:00 pm

Hi P, I hope the information I posted wasn't to negative for you. Like I said I went from 32mg to 0mg using this site. It really saved me. Just wanted you to know I understand what you are going through.
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:57 pm

Hey guys,

Thanks for the encouraging words. Tia, didn't take anything negative from what you said, so no worries! I would be more worried if I felt this way and everyone said I should be over it by now.. Which in a lot of ways I feel I should be, but then again this is the longest I've had clean for 10 years and I don't really know what it should feel like.

Steph, good to hear from you. How are things going?

This week was pretty rough until today. My neck has been so fucking tense it's ridiculous. I feel like it needs to be cracked but it won't. My stomach has till been bothering me, mostly heartburn. What has been kind of odd this time is that I haven't had prolonged loose stools (sorry to be graphic here). I did the first couple weeks, but it has been variable. When I have good days like today I am thankful.

I'm going to the east coast next week for Turkey day to see family and friends. While I have been looking forward to it I also hope I don't feel like crap. I am not committed to not using substances or drinking of any kind like AA peeps (just committed to no opioids). Having said that, I haven't had a drink or other mind altering substance since I quit, mainly because I still feel so shitty in the mornings I don't want to add to that. I know that I will be tempted to have a couple beers with friends and family out there though. But I guess I can't worry about that now..

My philosophy has been to be who I know I am, and that's a fucking soldier that would rather fall trying than lay down, and that's what I'm going to keep doing. The time passes either way, and I'm going to let it pass while going in a positive direction no matter how crappy I feel.

-Patrick
User avatar
suboptimal
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:40 am

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:57 pm

Hi P. always good to hear from you. Being on anything for 10 years is a long time, so it will take some time to return to normal. Drugs then subs like most of us. Plus you were on subs for 7 years and that is a long time too.
As many people know it is a slow process and your off subs and dealing with the after math of your addiction.
Healing takes time. You are still raw and your body is saying WTF is going on now. First be proud of yourself for getting off subs. That in itself is a big deal. HUGHE . You're recovering the best as you can. Time takes time and I hated hearing that, but it is so true. Sub is an evil soul sucking drug that strips your brain cells into mush. No one really knows the full effects it has on the brain but it is major. If not there would be no SS and people could just walk off without problems, which many MD's tell patients. My sub MD said just cut off a small sliver off everyday and you'll be ok in a week or two. Took me a year to go from 32mg to 0mg. I did many things that I was advised not to do, like spike, used Percocet after having 3 hours worth of dental work, etc, etc. Then only waited 3-4 days, before dropping my sub dose. BAD IDEA, which I paid for in the worst way..
You have a great attitude and taking it one day at a time. Everyone is different so your experience will be yours. All the things you are going through are normal and sub related, I know you can do this as you are very motivated, strong, and determined.
Peace
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby jayro » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:26 pm

100 days or so seemed to be pretty close to a secondary milestone for me. Maybe closer to 120 days. I'd say that was around the time I really started getting sleep.
Addicted from 1875 - 2014
Kicked Jan, 1 2014
75 years on Laudanum
25 years on Dr. Thomas' Magical Pain Elixer ™
25 years on Goofenthol ®
12 years on Fun Pills
2 years on Subs

Book me into a goofy clinic. NOW!
User avatar
jayro
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:10 pm
Location: Hell City, Hell

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:13 am

Hey there Jayro! Good to see you check in!
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
User avatar
cheeps
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:15 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:43 pm

Hi P. Wishing you a Happy Thanksgiving, Hope things go well with your family.
Peace
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:21 pm

What's up guys, just checking in after the holiday. Thanks Tia, I did and hope you did as well.

Thanks Jayro, it is helpful to hear others with the same experience. I feel like I can sleep, I just never feel rested when I wake up. I am hoping this gets better soon. I think it might be.


Tomorrow marks 110 days off the orange ball n chain. I just got back from NYC which I went to for the holiday. I was a little worried about it because I knew I would be around family the whole time and would be doing a lot of activities. I live alone, which means nobody has to be around me when I am depressed or lacking energy, which has been often. While there were times I was hating it, overall the trip was good for me. I drank (not excessively) for the first time since off subs and handled it fairly well (more on my philosophy on psychoactive substances later, but suffice to say I am not an AA thumper.. I just know I need to stay away from opioids at all costs). I am going back Christmas for a longer period ( almost 2 weeks). Hopefully I will have a good experience then too.

This trip is a good example of what it has taken for me to get off this stuff; in order to break through and beat this, in my humble opinion, you need to do things that are uncomfortable. It is the same principle as exposure therapies use for anxiety, depression etc., namely doing things you don't want to do. In the past I was really convinced I couldn't work, go to family functions, etc. while still in any kind of opioid withdrawal (acute or otherwise). This simply isn't true and I'm proof of that.

Anyways still fighting the good fight. My stomach is what is bothering me most still (heartburn). I actually stopped one of my heartburn meds because I think I was getting weird side effects that I was mistaking for PAWS. Since I stopped it my PAWS in general is way better but my heartburn still sucks. Have an appointment with a GI doc next week. Pretty much know what they are going to say (that I need an endoscopy). Not going to worry about it for now. Energy is getting better. Drove some errands after work today and didn't even feel tired which a month ago would have been unheard of.

Hope everyone had a good holiday and managed to get through unscathed.

-Patrick
User avatar
suboptimal
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:40 am

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:36 am

Patrick...you are certainly making progress and that is wonderful especially around your family! I sure do get being among people and feeling stressed about it. You are almost to 120days and that is huge! Do get your guts checked....you might want to consider a bottle of probiotics before you go. Swan sons has them cheap and any drugstore carries them now....used to be hard to find.

You are the man! Next year will be a good year for you. I wouldn't worry about taking a drink just keep it in the house or don't drive. Keep checking in....do you live a long way from NYC?
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
User avatar
cheeps
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:15 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby yup. » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:34 am

Patrick,

I’m glad your trip to NYC went well and that you had a happy Thanksgiving. It’s good that you’re starting to sleep somewhat normally again. That was the last of the major symptoms that disappeared for me and it took a while before I felt like I was fully rested after a good night’s sleep. It does get better but I still have days where I feel like I didn’t get enough sleep. Thankfully, those are mostly self-inflicted at this point and I don’t believe PAWS has anything to do with it. It will get better but patience is a bitch at this point so I understand your apprehension regarding this.

Congratulations on getting to 111 days (you were at 110 when you wrote this). That’s a big fucking deal and you should be proud of that. I’m proud of you for hitting that point. Anybody that ever says quitting subs is easy needs to have somebody beat them with a flip-flop. This whole process is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. As far as drinking goes, I started drinking a little more after I quit subs and wasn’t in the acute phase anymore but I didn’t let it get the best of me. I also still smoke pot on a regular basis but honestly I was scared away from opiates by the acute withdrawals I went through. Feeling like that for the first time in my life was somewhat traumatic – I was like a feeble old man – and I never want to go through that again.

And yes, stepping outside your comfort zone is important. I’m glad you were able to embrace this and hang out with your family for the holiday. There’s a certain sense of accomplishment that comes from doing these kinds of things and that’s important moving forward. After I quit subs I felt like I was trying to rediscover who I am and where I belong in this world. I’m still going through that but it’s getting a little easier every day. It’s just that subs (and opiates) dull our emotions and having those come back is an experience in itself so having a victory under your belt is extremely helpful.

Cheeps mentioned a probiotic and I took those for a good while after quitting subs. I tried your basic probiotic during the acute phase and it didn’t do squat but I went for one of the refrigerated probiotics you get at Whole Foods or another health food store and those started getting my stomach back to normal. I haven’t taken them in a while, as my appetite returned after a few weeks and eventually I wanted to see what I could handle without a probiotic. Not being able to eat worth a shit for the first few weeks after quitting subs was one of the most horrid things. I love food and taking away one of the most basic things I do as a human really screwed me up – both physically and mentally.

I’m going to check out some other threads and head into work. Just keep on this path and anything that isn’t improving at the moment will. I bitched and moaned for a good long while after jumping off subs but it does eventually pay off. I’m in a spot with my life that I’m actually comfortable with and while I still have issues sometimes (mostly mental) I don’t crave opiates and I feel good physically. You’ll get there. :-D
Off subs since 3/25/15
"It's just a ride" - Bill Hicks
User avatar
yup.
 
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon May 11, 2015 9:58 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:17 pm

Hi P, glad you had a good time in NYC. You did it and that's major. All your hard work is paying off. A endoscope is a PIA, but they put you to sleep. You won't remember it. Maybe a slight sore throat. I'm sure you've used other meds to help with the heart burn, Maalox, Mylanta , etc.
I live alone too and it is much easier when you are having symptoms. That's why I think it was great you got out, took a chance and surprised yourself . You've got this.
Keep up the good work,
Peace
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:23 pm

Hi All,

Haven't checked in in a while but wanted to let anyone out there in the struggle know that I'm still kicking (both figuratively and literally). Coming up on 150 days soon.

Just returned from a week and a half long trip. It was difficult at times, but a lot easier than it would have been two or even one month ago. Overall, while very slow, I'm still improving. Most noticeable is my energy. I still have motivation issues, but I was thinking today about how I was at 1,2, and even 3 months. How it was a constant negotiation with myself to do just about anything. Now, I go to the store, make dinner, go to work, etc. and am not constantly thinking about it (although still struggle at times). I am able to relax at night with only minor leg jitters and feeling of not being comfortable. I still sweat out of my pits more than I should, but not like a hose like I used to. My stomach is still off, but seems to be improving. My neck muscles have loosened a little, which was really bugging me.

Over the holidays (and a little before) I have been boozing a bit. Not too excessive. It does mask some symptoms and this stage, but ultimately I think it makes the mental stuff worse. I also know it makes my already shitty sleep worse. I'm going to take it easy on that for a while. Not because it's "problem" but because I don't get that much out of it. Actually, I think the subs did something to me (eg my brain) that makes alcohol less pleasurable. I can get drunk and not feel real euphoria from it.

I'll keep you guys updated. I have a post I want to do about some of my theories on subs and the brain and why it's so hard to kick. Some of it has been said before on here and other places. Others not so much (mainly about how subs actually act on a non-traditional opioid receptor, the "kappa" or "k" receptor). It is something that is largely ignored.. But that will require some energy I don't have at the moment. I may do it as a separate thread.

Happy new year everyone! A year free of subs.. It can be for you, and it will be for me.

-Patrick
User avatar
suboptimal
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:40 am

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:04 am

Patrick...you've been reading my mind....I agree about the issue with the kappa receptor and I'm most anxious to read what is swirling in your brain.

Sometimes I hesitate to talk about the depression sub can cause because not everyone experiences it. It the " horror" part of wh we are here. It needs to be exposed but I doubt it will be...except by the thousands of sub Guinea pigs and this forum.

I had a spell of it this past weekend and pushed thru it by reminding myself it's not my real state of mind or my real wishes with my life.

It's very scary and real...doing a very slow taper can mitigate it...

I would like you to keep it here in your thread. It is something I feel should be known and addressed but many first time peeps may freak the fuck out and decide not to get off. Maybe it's written wrong to ask you this.....a discussion on it would be good. On the one hand, the truth should be told...on the other hand....when should it be told? Are peeps going to be strong enough to stay the course knowing how fucked up their mental state can get. Ugh...

I'm so on the fence with how this should be handled.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
User avatar
cheeps
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:15 pm

The K receptor

Postby suboptimal » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:46 pm

Cheeps, I agree. I am on the fence as well. But ultimately I think knowledge is power. The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from getting off sub. I don't think anyone should be with what I'm about to write, or my other posts. The internet is full of extremes with this: people either pretend it is the simplest thing ever to get off of, or they act like it is impossible. The truth, for me (a 7+ year sub addict) is that it is somewhere in between. It definitely sucks, but it is possible to do for sure...

I wanted to write this post about the k opioid receptor because I think it is something that is largely ignored. Once I started reading up on it it helped explain why my symptoms were different than coming off of other opioids. While the symptoms still sucked, it at least provides an answer..

Below is some info on on how sub works, and more specifically the K opioid receptor. I am not a neuroscientist, but I did study this stuff in college and have a science background.. Please read up yourself. There is a pretty good paper in the journal Nature about this.

The K receptor: largely ignored but important:

Suboxone is a synthetic opioid. Like all drugs, it works by imitating your bodies natural neurotransmitters, in this case your endogenous (made from within the body) endorphins. Drugs work because they are chemically similar enough that they, in a sense, lock in as a fake neurotransmitters, or cause your brain/body to release more of a neurotransmitter (meth, for instance, does both to dopamine by releasing more dopamine and also not allowing the brain to absorb excess dopamine it relseases). Almost all rewarding drugs act on dopamine for reward, but act on different systems to get different effects as well (benzos: GABA, LSD: serotonin, Alcohol: GABA, cocaine and meth: dopamine: etc).

Out of the four opioid receptors almost all rewarding opioids act on the "u" receptor. Agonists (drugs that upregulate or make more of) of the u receptor are known to cause pain relief, euphoria, constipation, slower breathing, etc. In other words, what you would classically expect taking an opioid. Suboxone is a "partial agonist" of this receptor. That means it, supposedly, works by increasing activity in this receptor "partially." What defines "partial" is debatable. It also has what is called a "high affinity" for this receptor. This means once it activates or "locks in" it is there for a good time. This is why sub lasts so fucking long.

Okay, so far this all makes sense and is kind of what you would expect from sub. It partially activates this classic u receptor, stays on, so you are partially high and not in withdrawal. Now here comes the interesting part: sub is also a k receptor antagonist (which means it down-regulates, or causes less neurotransmitter activity). Why does this matter? Well that depends on what the k receptor does, doesn't it?

The k receptor is also a pain relieving receptor. So if you were to activate it you would get some pain relief (remember we are not activating it with sub, we are deactivating it). It, however, does not provide euphoria like the u receptor. They tried making drugs to activate this receptor, but found that people got dysphoria (unhappy depressed felling), got more anxious, and many even hallucinatory effects, among other things. Further, they found that drugs tested on this receptor had a long-effect.

So, when you come off sub you are not only dealing with the classic opioid symptoms from the u receptor, you are also battling your k receptor waking up again when it has been down regulated for years. If, when the k receptor is down regulated you are likely to be less anxious, less depressed, and less likely to have psychotic symptoms, when you come off you are likely to have the opposite (be more depressed, more anxious etc.). The truth is, they don't really know all of what drugs that effect the k receptor really do. They haven't studied it enough.. IMO, a lot of the severe foggy feeling, and especially the severe anxiety and depersonalized feeling of "not being there" is due to this aspect of sub detox...


That's all the energy I have for this at the moment. Might add later. Again, I'm not a doctor or a neuroscientist, but I do play one on the internet. My goal is not to scare anyone. The good news is the brain is an amazing thing, and is very good at getting back to homeostasis (or back to "level"). In the case of subs, it just takes a while. Just know that if you have symptoms you didn't experience coming off dope you are not crazy, it is probably just an appropriate reaction to the drug you were taking (sub). You were on a drug that flooded you brain 24 hours a day and it takes it a while to come back from that..
User avatar
suboptimal
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:40 am

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:49 pm

Thank you for this SO....I'm the kind of person that needs scientific stuff spelled out to me. Please keep posting when you feel up to it.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back & Neck surgeries
Oxy free 12/06/14
More surgeries 2016-17
2017 Oxy taper in progress
User avatar
cheeps
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:15 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:41 am

Hi P, thanks so much for the info. I love to learn new things. I have detoxed a few times without subs and returned to 'normal' what ever that may be with in a few weeks. Coming off subs was a new game and the symptoms lasted so long I thought I was going crazy. Once again it shows that MD"s don't know shit and you explained it very well. What did you mean you're a MD on the internet? just wondering.
Glad you are fighting your way back and it's always good to hear from you.
Peace
Tia
subsucker free 4-30-12
One Hour at a time
subster58
 
Posts: 2169
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:43 am

Thanks guys. I hope it is helpful... I'de be curious if anyone else has thoughts on this...


Hey Tina, I was just joking about the "doctor on the internet" thing. There used to be this commercial for cough syrup where the actor form general hospital or some such show would say "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on tv." Which was a ridiculous way to sell cough syrup, but funny.. I was referencing that. Sorry, I always assume people get my references when most of the time they have no idea of WTF I'm talking about haha.

-Patrick
User avatar
suboptimal
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:40 am

PreviousNext

Return to Sub Sux

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron