72 Days off Subs after 7 years

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72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:09 am

EDIT: BTW, the site is using both the first user name I took (suboptimal) as well as the second one they said was taken (subliminal) so both these are me... Same password. Don't know if it is possible to fix that. I'll just be signed in as SUBOPTIMAL from now on but the first two replies from"subliminal" are me. Thanks


Hi All,

I have been browsing for a while and wanted to post to A) Introduce myself & B) because I have some questions.

As my title states, I am 72 days off subs after 7 years of being on them. I won't bore with the details unless someone wants to know to help them taper etc. But the short version is: was addicted to SAO for 3 years, went to rehab, got on subs. Was on a beginning does of 16 mg (was on 24 at one point for a shorter time), and gradually weened down through the years. The last 4 years I was on 4mgs or less. The last year I and a half I was on 2mgs. The last months before I jumped I went from about .75mgs to .25 mgs and jumped. For people on wanting to get off let me say it is possible. It's not easy, but if I can do it so can you. I did this while working (no days off). I actually think this helped..

I can go in to more details about how I felt during my taper and acute phase for those that are interested if they think it will be helpful to them, but I have a few questions of my own from people who have been through this.

Mainly, I have symptoms I would expect from withdrawal still, and others which I am unsure if I have something else unrelated to withdrawal (eg some other medical issue). I realize after 7 years of being on a LAO my body and mind are going to be freaking out for a while, but some of my symptoms just seem odd. Some of these symptoms were part of the reason I got off subs because I thought the subs may have been causing them.. Maybe they were, or maybe withdrawal during tape, IDK.

Ongoing issues:

1) I wake up feeling like I got hit in the head with a frying pan. I am super groggy and often have a headache-type feeling. I got this when I got on subs, so thought that was it. One of the things I was looking forward to about being off was waking up feeling refreshed. It is one of the things I remember form rehab (morning was my favorite time of day there, even if I barely slept). Did anyone else have this for a couple months after? It seems like how I feel when I wake up may determine how I feel the rest of the day too. At this point I am wondering if I have some sleep disorder or something..

2)This one is a combination. Sorry if it is confusing.
I can feel pretty good for a couple weeks or days, etc., then I go through these "spells." I got them on the sub too. It is hard to explain (believe me I've tried to multiple doctors). The best way I can describe it is almost like a low blood sugar type feeling. I feel really dissasociated. Don't get me wrong, I am in touch with reality, but I feel out of body. My appetite becomes off. I also feel like I am walking in Jello or something. I feel kind of "dizzy" but not in a fall down kind of way. Nobody would notice, I don't think, but it certainly feels like they would. Lastly, kind of random, but I have also noticed that when I have these both listening to music and playing/singing (I play guitar etc.) is way off. i don't have the same ability that I normally would as far as keeping rhythm and tone in my voice. My stomach is also way off. On heartburn pills and when I eat I feel like I get full really quickly.. To the point I feel like I have to force myself to keep eating a normal meal. When I don't have these spells I have somewhat of the opposite and can eat a lot..

I have others I can go on about but this is good starting point as I don't want to go on and on. I know I am older (almost 30) but when I kicked before at 60 days I was working out hard etc. Right now I am active walking a lot and working, but the thought of actually running or lifting weights just seems like way too much. When I do do harder physical activity I feel okay doing it and then pay for it for days after..

Anyways, even with that list I feel good that I have finally done this. I wish I had done so sooner, but I feel good about where I'm at in life now. It's a catch 22 because subs allowed me time to get my life together, so in that respect I was a fan.. On the other I now feel like I'm a 90 year old man much of the time and have lost years of my life being zombie like. But that's a topic for another thread..

Feel free to ask me any questions about how I kicked, as I would like to repay the favor.. I can't say I have all the answers, but I did try multiple methods and can tell you what worked for me. Most of it was a decision to do it no matter what though.

-Cheers
Last edited by suboptimal on Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby mano » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:34 pm

Welcome to the site Subo, and a H U G E congrats on getting clean!! :cheers2: It is no small feat after 7 years.

I think what you are feeling and what you described is very common, and it would fall under the category of PAWS...Post acute withdrawal syndrome.

Exercise is the key, and while you may feel like an old man at 30, you are just a pup...and believe me, that's a very good thing when it comes to detoxing. Exercise is the one thing that will get you where you want to be faster than anything else. You said you are walking, and that's a great start. A good daily multi vitamin also would be good, as your body is probably depleted of them.

When you can step up the exercise a little, do so. This is going to take some time, but please don't let that discourage you, and please don't read into the doom & gloom that PAWS is forever. It might be for some people, but not an active 30 year old. It's going to take time though, and how long is a question that no one can answer. Maybe 6 months, maybe a year, maybe longer. It's a very slow process and people get discouraged because they sometimes feel they aren't making any progress, but every day opiate free is another step up the mountain of freedom.

Read around, and I'm sure you'll have lots of other responses soon...it tends to get very quiet around here on weekend!
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:45 pm

Hi Suboptimal and welcome to ss. You are a young pup as mano posted and congrats on being off subs after 7 years. That is MAJOR and you should be very proud of yourself. it will take some time to get the brain chemistry back to normal. 7 years is a long time so it will take time to recovery completely. I went from 32mg of subs to 0mg with the help of all the great people on this site. What you are feeling is what we used to call the" lead suit".
The easiest of tasks may feel over whelming and your energy level is zapped for no reason. It's awesome you were able to work during your detox so that tells me you are very determined and an inspiration to many people. Most everything else is related to subs. it's an very powerful drug. you may feel up and down for some time. The sleeping, eating and stomach issues are all normal. All from sub use, which is an evil soul sucking drug.
Keep posting and more help will come. Exercise as much as possible. Drink a ton of water to rid your body of the toxicity of subs. Although I believe you have gotten most of them out after 70 plus days. Can't hurt.
You've already come so far you have no idea. Congrats to all the hard work you've already put in to rid yourself of subs.
Peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subliminal » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:17 pm

(this reply is from user Suboptimal aka subliminal)

Thanks guys, I appreciate it a lot! It's nice to talk to people who actually understand this stuff. I have told my family, and while they care, they have no idea what this entails. I also didn't want to worry them too much (and really don't like to complain much in general).

It is easy to feel discouraged and like it won't end, but I remember being stuck at higher doses thinking I would never make it off, yet here I am. It doesn't always "hit me" that I'm actually off that stuff, but when I was typing the title to this thread I have to say it felt pretty good. The receptionist said at my final appointment with my Doc that I was one of three people there, that she knows of, that has kicked. I was also their first sub patient...

I have definitely improved since the first month, of course. I remember trying to walk up the stairs at work and having to grab the rail to make it up. Now I go right up them with no problem. It's those kinds of things I notice. Not immediately, but you think back and realize things have gotten better. I also have some education in the physiology of this stuff, but the rational mind and education doesn't always mean much when it comes to this stuff. Your body/mind still wants to trick you. It also just seems so variable. One day/week I'm pretty good, the next I have the "lead suit" on. The variability drives me nuts.

It has been a long road though. Some days are better than others but one think I know for sure is that I'm not going back on that crap for anything.

-Cheers
Last edited by subliminal on Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:04 pm

Sb, I too tried to explain it to my girls and friends, but there is no way anyone can truly understand it unless they have gone through it. This site saved my ass as I felt so alone and needed people who understood. Your on the best site ever.. The understanding and knowledge you will receive is second to none. It does feel like it never ends, but it does and it will get better. It's a process that takes time, sometime at a snails pace.
Most MD's don't want patients to go off subs, as it is a money maker for them. My MD didn't take insurance and it was all cash up front. Plus to start me out at 32mg for taking oxycodone 30mg 4-5 x a day was insane. I only learned the truth by coming to this site or I would still be on it. NEVER go back, no matter what.. Your thoughts at times will not be rational and will tell you lies that you can't do it, or just take a small amount, or maybe just one pill. We call him Freddie the Fucker as it is all lies. Like you said try's to trick you into taking anything.
I'm curious as to your knowledge about subs/trick. I always can learn from others, and never have all the answers. Just my experience. Glad you found us.
Peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subliminal » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:11 pm

This reply is from user suboptimal, aka subliminal

Thanks Tia!

Yeah, that Freddie really is a Fucker lol. Oddly enough, as shitty as I've felt I haven't had too many cravings. When I do get cravings, even more oddly, it is usually when I am having a "good day" both mentally and physically. They really aren't that bad though. It has been a long time since I've actually gotten high/euphoric off an opioid, so I don't really have that association like I used to, and I have a bad association with subs since they made me feel so bad the past couple years that I only really craved that "little piece" for the first month or so. Now I just crave feeling like a human.

Yes, I'd be happy to share any knowledge I have. I, of course, have a lot of personal experience from being on them so long, but I also studied psychology (with a concentration on psychoactive drugs) and some neuroscience in college. Still work in the research field so have access to a lot of free journals I can search, and do when I can. Subs are an odd drug because it acts on both the mu and k opioid receptors (unlike most SAO that produce euphoria, which usually just act on the mu receptor). From the research I've done if ANYONE tells you they know how this effects people long term and that they know all the possible side effects they are a damn liar. There are no studies on long term use I can find, and the pharm companies that make it have deliberately avoiding doing studies on tapering, lower dosing, etc... Despite our cries for them to do so. Not to mention the whole pill-film fiasco. I'm glad I don't have to give them any more of my money. My doctor was/is a nice guy (I've known him since I was a kid and he never tried anything sketchy), but he too is quite ignorant. Can't really blame him, since there is little to no good studies on the stuff (that provide an accurate picture).
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:48 am

........ It's good you aren't having any craving yet and I hope it stays that way. You seem very determined and have the knowledge so that is to your advantage. MD's only have to take an eight hour course to RX subs and they are clueless as you have found out. They hand them out like candy and my MD said just cut a small piece off each day and you will be fine. It's the worst experience I've ever had in my life and the hardest thing I've ever been through. I've been through so many things in my life as many of us have, but sub detox is the worst. As you've stated they do not know the long term effects. They also don't not know the hell one goes through. With their flip answers. it's all in your head, or it's not from subs, etc. And why would any MD put you on subs for 7 years. It should only be used for a week or two to detox someone from opiates. After a month you have just traded one addiction for a much worse addiction of subs. I was so pissed off at myself for not researching the drug until it was too late. I've been a nurse for over 40 years and used to doing what the MD's told me to do. So I did not question the dose and believed the lies. Only by coming here did I get the truth and got the help to get off subs. I pissed and moaned and cried for months. No one ever gave up on me no matter what and I was a real PIA. LOL. I could of never done it alone like you did, so my hats off to you. You'll be able to help a lot of people with your experience, hope and understanding.
Peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:17 pm

Hi SB, how are you? Hoping things are going well. Would love to hear from you.
peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Steph1850 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:36 pm

suboptimal wrote:EDIT: BTW, the site is using both the first user name I took (suboptimal) as well as the second one they said was taken (subliminal) so both these are me... Same password. Don't know if it is possible to fix that. I'll just be signed in as SUBOPTIMAL from now on but the first two replies from"subliminal" are me. Thanks


Hi All,

I have been browsing for a while and wanted to post to A) Introduce myself & B) because I have some questions.

As my title states, I am 72 days off subs after 7 years of being on them. I won't bore with the details unless someone wants to know to help them taper etc. But the short version is: was addicted to SAO for 3 years, went to rehab, got on subs. Was on a beginning does of 16 mg (was on 24 at one point for a shorter time), and gradually weened down through the years. The last 4 years I was on 4mgs or less. The last year I and a half I was on 2mgs. The last months before I jumped I went from about .75mgs to .25 mgs and jumped. For people on wanting to get off let me say it is possible. It's not easy, but if I can do it so can you. I did this while working (no days off). I actually think this helped..

I can go in to more details about how I felt during my taper and acute phase for those that are interested if they think it will be helpful to them, but I have a few questions of my own from people who have been through this.

Mainly, I have symptoms I would expect from withdrawal still, and others which I am unsure if I have something else unrelated to withdrawal (eg some other medical issue). I realize after 7 years of being on a LAO my body and mind are going to be freaking out for a while, but some of my symptoms just seem odd. Some of these symptoms were part of the reason I got off subs because I thought the subs may have been causing them.. Maybe they were, or maybe withdrawal during tape, IDK.

Ongoing issues:

1) I wake up feeling like I got hit in the head with a frying pan. I am super groggy and often have a headache-type feeling. I got this when I got on subs, so thought that was it. One of the things I was looking forward to about being off was waking up feeling refreshed. It is one of the things I remember form rehab (morning was my favorite time of day there, even if I barely slept). Did anyone else have this for a couple months after? It seems like how I feel when I wake up may determine how I feel the rest of the day too. At this point I am wondering if I have some sleep disorder or something..

2)This one is a combination. Sorry if it is confusing.
I can feel pretty good for a couple weeks or days, etc., then I go through these "spells." I got them on the sub too. It is hard to explain (believe me I've tried to multiple doctors). The best way I can describe it is almost like a low blood sugar type feeling. I feel really dissasociated. Don't get me wrong, I am in touch with reality, but I feel out of body. My appetite becomes off. I also feel like I am walking in Jello or something. I feel kind of "dizzy" but not in a fall down kind of way. Nobody would notice, I don't think, but it certainly feels like they would. Lastly, kind of random, but I have also noticed that when I have these both listening to music and playing/singing (I play guitar etc.) is way off. i don't have the same ability that I normally would as far as keeping rhythm and tone in my voice. My stomach is also way off. On heartburn pills and when I eat I feel like I get full really quickly.. To the point I feel like I have to force myself to keep eating a normal meal. When I don't have these spells I have somewhat of the opposite and can eat a lot..

I have others I can go on about but this is good starting point as I don't want to go on and on. I know I am older (almost 30) but when I kicked before at 60 days I was working out hard etc. Right now I am active walking a lot and working, but the thought of actually running or lifting weights just seems like way too much. When I do do harder physical activity I feel okay doing it and then pay for it for days after..

Anyways, even with that list I feel good that I have finally done this. I wish I had done so sooner, but I feel good about where I'm at in life now. It's a catch 22 because subs allowed me time to get my life together, so in that respect I was a fan.. On the other I now feel like I'm a 90 year old man much of the time and have lost years of my life being zombie like. But that's a topic for another thread..

Feel free to ask me any questions about how I kicked, as I would like to repay the favor.. I can't say I have all the answers, but I did try multiple methods and can tell you what worked for me. Most of it was a decision to do it no matter what though.

-Cheers


OMG, I really want to hear your methods for tapering and the symptoms you experienced. I have been on subs again almost a year, went up to 32 mg at one point, and I am now at 8.5 mg. Those "episodes" or "spells" you describe of feeling lightheaded, low blood sugar, and walking in jello....I get those ALL THE TIME. Mine usually happen after a drop in my taper and happen on a daily basis, usually at the worst times, like in a meeting with my boss, or one time when my vendors flew down to meet with our team and I was presenting. Mine even go into sweating and shaking. Did you find any remedy to stop them or lessen the severity of the "spell"? I would LOVE any input on this issue as it's my biggest problem while tapering and slows my progress. Thanks in advance and welcome to SS!!
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Steph1850 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:40 pm

suboptimal wrote:EDIT: BTW, the site is using both the first user name I took (suboptimal) as well as the second one they said was taken (subliminal) so both these are me... Same password. Don't know if it is possible to fix that. I'll just be signed in as SUBOPTIMAL from now on but the first two replies from"subliminal" are me. Thanks


Hi All,

I have been browsing for a while and wanted to post to A) Introduce myself & B) because I have some questions.

As my title states, I am 72 days off subs after 7 years of being on them. I won't bore with the details unless someone wants to know to help them taper etc. But the short version is: was addicted to SAO for 3 years, went to rehab, got on subs. Was on a beginning does of 16 mg (was on 24 at one point for a shorter time), and gradually weened down through the years. The last 4 years I was on 4mgs or less. The last year I and a half I was on 2mgs. The last months before I jumped I went from about .75mgs to .25 mgs and jumped. For people on wanting to get off let me say it is possible. It's not easy, but if I can do it so can you. I did this while working (no days off). I actually think this helped..

I can go in to more details about how I felt during my taper and acute phase for those that are interested if they think it will be helpful to them, but I have a few questions of my own from people who have been through this.

Mainly, I have symptoms I would expect from withdrawal still, and others which I am unsure if I have something else unrelated to withdrawal (eg some other medical issue). I realize after 7 years of being on a LAO my body and mind are going to be freaking out for a while, but some of my symptoms just seem odd. Some of these symptoms were part of the reason I got off subs because I thought the subs may have been causing them.. Maybe they were, or maybe withdrawal during tape, IDK.

Ongoing issues:

1) I wake up feeling like I got hit in the head with a frying pan. I am super groggy and often have a headache-type feeling. I got this when I got on subs, so thought that was it. One of the things I was looking forward to about being off was waking up feeling refreshed. It is one of the things I remember form rehab (morning was my favorite time of day there, even if I barely slept). Did anyone else have this for a couple months after? It seems like how I feel when I wake up may determine how I feel the rest of the day too. At this point I am wondering if I have some sleep disorder or something..

2)This one is a combination. Sorry if it is confusing.
I can feel pretty good for a couple weeks or days, etc., then I go through these "spells." I got them on the sub too. It is hard to explain (believe me I've tried to multiple doctors). The best way I can describe it is almost like a low blood sugar type feeling. I feel really dissasociated. Don't get me wrong, I am in touch with reality, but I feel out of body. My appetite becomes off. I also feel like I am walking in Jello or something. I feel kind of "dizzy" but not in a fall down kind of way. Nobody would notice, I don't think, but it certainly feels like they would. Lastly, kind of random, but I have also noticed that when I have these both listening to music and playing/singing (I play guitar etc.) is way off. i don't have the same ability that I normally would as far as keeping rhythm and tone in my voice. My stomach is also way off. On heartburn pills and when I eat I feel like I get full really quickly.. To the point I feel like I have to force myself to keep eating a normal meal. When I don't have these spells I have somewhat of the opposite and can eat a lot..

I have others I can go on about but this is good starting point as I don't want to go on and on. I know I am older (almost 30) but when I kicked before at 60 days I was working out hard etc. Right now I am active walking a lot and working, but the thought of actually running or lifting weights just seems like way too much. When I do do harder physical activity I feel okay doing it and then pay for it for days after..

Anyways, even with that list I feel good that I have finally done this. I wish I had done so sooner, but I feel good about where I'm at in life now. It's a catch 22 because subs allowed me time to get my life together, so in that respect I was a fan.. On the other I now feel like I'm a 90 year old man much of the time and have lost years of my life being zombie like. But that's a topic for another thread..

Feel free to ask me any questions about how I kicked, as I would like to repay the favor.. I can't say I have all the answers, but I did try multiple methods and can tell you what worked for me. Most of it was a decision to do it no matter what though.

-Cheers


By the way, congrats on such a HUGE achievement and you give people like me hope and inspiration. Just what I needed today.
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:16 pm

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies. My internet is out so I have my phone only at the moment. Hope to write a response/update tomorrow. I'm hanging in tuff.

Steph, I'd be happy to tell you what worked for me when I have a real keyboard available..


Cheers
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Steph1850 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:48 pm

Sounds good, suboptimal. Looking forward to your reply!
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:51 pm

Hey guys!

Day 75, and hanging in there. Past few days have been pretty good. One day I couldn't shake the headaches, back aches, and foggy feeling, but other days were pretty good. Definitely have more energy than I did the first month and a half, but hit walls throughout the day. Still have some jimmy legs trying to relax at night. I end up just going to bed really early. My pits are like a fountain at times, but slowly improving (it is pretty embarrassing.. Looking forward to wearing light colored shirts again. My neck is super stiff and feels like it needs to be cracked.

My sense of humor is coming back. At times I'll all of a sudden find humor in almost everything and start cracking myself up (I am one funny mofo, if I do say so). My brain just seems to be trying to find an equal librium. For me it is a "slow burn." The first two to three weeks were more intense, but never out of control, but it has been a pretty consistent with slow improvement that is hard to measure.


Steph, it sounds like you want to get off, which is good. I remember being there at 8-10 mgs and thinking it was impossible. It is definitely possible, but it does take work.

I am going to add to this thread often as I have thoughts on the subject because it would be too much for me to detail at once. I can start with some suggestions for your stage though and what worked for me.

First, at least for me, until I got to about 3-4 mgs I didn't get a lot of traditional withdrawal symptoms. It did mess with me mentally though (and I really don't like saying that, because mental and physical is one in the same).

What do you feel like you experience when you cut now? I remember feeling a little more down at those drops, but no sleep trouble, sweats from the pits etc.

Yo said you are on 8.5 mgs? Are these strips? 8mgs? My advise would be to cut in 1-2mg increments util you are at 2-3 mgs.. Then reassess. Now, as far as when to cut I don't believe I can tell you that. Why? What worked for me was to not go by a set schedule. I would make drops in dosage and wait as long as it took for me to feel ready to drop again. This really varied depending on how much I dropped etc, but it ALWAYS took longer than I thought it should. For instance, I dropped from 3-2 mgs and stayed at 2 for a year. This was probably too long, but just an example. The trick to this method is to drop, give yourself enough time "mentally" and physically, and to NEVER go up once you make a drop. That last bit is very important.

I tried one other time to get off subs when I had been taking them about 4 years. I dropped from 3mgs to about .5 in two weeks. I ended up relapsing and being back on subs at 12mgs within a month. It was way too much for me.

When I was successful this time I did some things I didn't do before (first thing was I didn't set time limits). I truly accepted I was going to feel uncomfortable. I did it a time my life was going well, except for being on subs and what that was costing me physically and emotionally (unlike every other time I've tried to kick, when my life is crapy). I didn't change my routine at all. If I had a dental appointment I kept it (had a cleaning 2 weeks off, that sucked). I went to work. I stayed busy. By doing this I built some confidence.

I have many more thoughts on this, and I hope to detail more soon. Let me know if you have any questions! You can do it :thumbup: but it will take patience and acceptance young grasshopper.

-Cheers
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:10 am

Hi, did you ever have feeling of PAWS? Just curious. Yes dropping too fast throws one into hell as you found out . Going from 3mg to .5mg in 2 weeks is too much for the body to handle. I would only stay on a dose 3-4 days and then decrease again and it did not work. I just wanted off so bad but found out it was not doable. I finally got it through my thick stubborn head to stabilize on one dose before decreasing my dose.
Slow and steady wins the race. It just takes time and I was very impatient. That's something I had to learn to be.
Is there a reason you stayed on 2mg of subs for 2 years. Were you high risk for relapsing?. I don't mean to be intrusive just interested in your story. If you don't feel like answering I understand.
You were on subs 7 years which is a long time. So it will take time to feel normal, and get your brain chemistry back to normal, what ever that is. lol. As you have shown getting off subs is doable and you can give hope to many people.
Peace
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby Steph1850 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:41 pm

suboptimal wrote:Hey guys!

Steph, it sounds like you want to get off, which is good. I remember being there at 8-10 mgs and thinking it was impossible. It is definitely possible, but it does take work.

I am going to add to this thread often as I have thoughts on the subject because it would be too much for me to detail at once. I can start with some suggestions for your stage though and what worked for me.

First, at least for me, until I got to about 3-4 mgs I didn't get a lot of traditional withdrawal symptoms. It did mess with me mentally though (and I really don't like saying that, because mental and physical is one in the same).

What do you feel like you experience when you cut now? I remember feeling a little more down at those drops, but no sleep trouble, sweats from the pits etc.

Yo said you are on 8.5 mgs? Are these strips? 8mgs? My advise would be to cut in 1-2mg increments util you are at 2-3 mgs.. Then reassess. Now, as far as when to cut I don't believe I can tell you that. Why? What worked for me was to not go by a set schedule. I would make drops in dosage and wait as long as it took for me to feel ready to drop again. This really varied depending on how much I dropped etc, but it ALWAYS took longer than I thought it should. For instance, I dropped from 3-2 mgs and stayed at 2 for a year. This was probably too long, but just an example. The trick to this method is to drop, give yourself enough time "mentally" and physically, and to NEVER go up once you make a drop. That last bit is very important.

When I was successful this time I did some things I didn't do before (first thing was I didn't set time limits). I truly accepted I was going to feel uncomfortable. I did it a time my life was going well, except for being on subs and what that was costing me physically and emotionally (unlike every other time I've tried to kick, when my life is crapy). I didn't change my routine at all. If I had a dental appointment I kept it (had a cleaning 2 weeks off, that sucked). I went to work. I stayed busy. By doing this I built some confidence.

I have many more thoughts on this, and I hope to detail more soon. Let me know if you have any questions! You can do it :thumbup: but it will take patience and acceptance young grasshopper.

-Cheers


Hey you! Thanks for posting your thoughts and experience. Yes, I am at 8.5mg and I am on film (switched from generic pills because the exact dosage was getting way too hard to control). I think going forward 1-2 mg cuts is the way to go. I have just too many other pre-existing health complications and way too many withdrawal symptoms to go any faster. I thought I could, I desperately want to go faster, but I get totally get now that I....just....can't.

My life is stable and routine now so that's good. I got sober last December, I did a stint in rehab, and like an insane person, I relapsed on sub because I was hurting all over my body and thought it would help, etc. I was totally uneducated about how long it takes to get well again after sub. But the kicker is that before rehab, I was only taking 2-3mg every other day. AFTER rehab, I started taking 32mg, and maybe only 2 months later, I realized the gravity of what I had done to myself. I've been trying to get down quickly because My teeth are eroding, from perfect condition to 7 cavities in 7 months, and my front teeth are crumbling. And about 2/3 of my hair has fallen out. And I can't pee. And crazy anxiety, plus a whole litany of other side effects from the sub.

When you had/have those "episodes" that feel like low blood sugar, like you're walking in jello, is there anything you learned to do to stop them? That and anxiety are my biggest problems.

Right now, when I make cuts, I experience it ALL. Headaches, crippling anxiety, the "episodes" you spoke of, wake up every two hours, body aches and pains, stiffness. Once I dropped under 12mg, I have RLS all over my body. I guess I'm really sensitive to opiates.

Anyway, super stoked for you to have made it off sub, that's HUGE. And thanks for the info.
************
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:27 pm

Hey Steph,

It is natural to want to get off this stuff, like yesterday. I think especially us addicts want everything RIGHT NOW. In my experience though you need to be patient and give your body time to adjust. As long as you aren't going up you are moving forward, is my philosophy. When was the last time you dropped? I will try to give a time frame of my weening at some point, but if I were you I get stable, drop dose, and repeat.

I read some of your posts on other threads. A couple things: I noticed you split your doses? One of the first things I did at your stage was start taking just once a day. It helps break the reward mechanism that multiple dosing propagates. It also sounds like you have some anxiety about your health etc (trust me, I can relate). Maybe you can take some steps to help that? Have you had current blood work etc? Opioid withdrawal taps in to the same fear centers that tells us we are dying. If you can start thinking of that as just a bad thought instead of reality it will be helpful.. But I'm not a doctor and not sure of the extent of your conditions. I felt really unhealthy on subs (and still do often), but I used that as a way of moving forward off subs. I basically told myself that those "spells" were either side-effects or another medical condition. Either way I knew I couldn't tell for sure until I was off subs. Sorry, I couldn't/can't explain much more about them better than you can probably. Didn't really notice anything that made them better.

Could you give me some information? How long have you been on subs and your dosing? That might help me give better advice, but for now all you can do is 1) Stay at the same dose and drop gradually when you feel ready & 2) Get a physical to make sure nothing else is wrong. Hang in there! It will take time but you can do it!

Tia,

Thanks for the reply! And feel free to ask me anything, I don't embarrass too easy haha.

I was actually on 2mgs for just over a year, maybe a year and a half.. But kind of apples and apples I guess. I plan to detail my whole sub history when I have time.. I'm not sure why I stayed at that dose for that long... I just didn't feel "ready" to drop and sticking to my rules I didn't until I did feel ready. When I went below 3mgs is when I started to really feel it physically. I think I was a little worried from my last attempt too. Once I was at 2 it took me a couple months to get stable, and then every time I did feel stable I would start feeling crappy again. I think after being on it so long it just stopped working for me so I was in some kind of weird state where I was always in a little bit of withdrawal yet staving off the hard stuff by taking it every day. Once I started to go below 2mgs I did it "fairly quickly" (from 2mgs to zero in 5 months, with most of the drops in the last 2 months. I could have done the last .5 slower but like you I just wanted to be done and felt I was strong enough to do it (which it turns out I was haha)! I also never switched to strips and was breaking those generic pills with a razor which was a giant pain in the ass and probably really inaccurate. That alone was enough for me to want to quit lol.

-P
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby amery2u » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:26 pm

Hiya, Subopt!

I've read your posts and threads, and just WOW. YOU are on a journey that can be as rewarding as you want it to be. It's like a roller-coaster (or was/is to me) but one WORTH the ride, without the telltale bracelet at the fair.

I am exhausted, or would post more. . . read the earlies of my thread; may help!

Hugs and Kudos for quitting~!!!!
Anne
Sub-Free Since Easter Sunday~ 4/11/2015 . . and still truckin~..~
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby subster58 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:40 am

SP, thanks for sharing your trip off subs. You did what worked for you. Everyone is different and has different experiences. In the end we know it is no picnic but can be done if you put your mind to it and just go with the flow. There does come a time where you are in limbo, it's not working, but how do you keep Freddy away as he is screaming in your ear to get high. 7 years is a long time so I'm sure you felt that way for some time before you jumped. Thanks for giving hope to people that it is doable and you came out the other side sub free.
Peace
Tia
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby suboptimal » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:41 pm

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies!

Thought I would give a little updated here 1) on how I've been feeling lately and 2) a basic outline of my course of subs.

Closing in on 90 days here and honestly, not to bitch, but I have been feeling surprisingly rough lately. Obviously part of it is the withdrawals still, but I'm not sure if I have something else going on too. Energy is slowly improving but still low. Certainly not as bad as 2-3 weeks though.. Stomach is jacked.. constant heartburn and burping. Still feel like crap in the morning. My neck is ridiculously stiff.. I hit some golf balls yesterday and feel incapacitated today. Still feel really disassociated (like I'm "not really there"), foggy, etc. Having said all that, it is all "bearable," so if you are reading this wanting to get off subs don't let me scare you. It does suck, but I was also on subs for 7 years and I didn't expect this to be easy. I have a couple doctors appointments scheduled. Going to get full work ups just to make sure.They will probably look at me like I'm nuts, which is only halfway true lol.

The good news: still sub free and never going back. Very few cravings. Like I've said before, it is somewhat of a paradox but I when I do get cravings it is usually when I'm feeling "good." I got a couple cravings driving this past weekend. I did a lot of using driving around and I hadn't been driving for a long while.. I got past it.

I wanted to see if I could outline my course on subs. It won't be easy because I was kind of a seasaw, but I'll try. Here it goes:

-SAO (oxies, heroin, etc) 2-3 years (used subs periodically in here, and when I did I took a lot (16-24mgs)
-Went to rehab (and after 60 days of clean time I got on subs! Yes, I know, I know.. ).
-Maintained at 16 mgs for about a year
-Slowly went down to 8-12mgs for 2 years or so
-Went down to 4 for about a year
-Eventually made it down to about 3 mgs, went rapidly from here to about .5 mgs. It was pretty rough. Also got really depressed around this time over a girl, relapsed on roxys and other substances and found myself back on 14 mgs of subs

Try # 2:
-Started at 12-14 mgs
-Went down to 6 within a year
-Went down to 4 mgs 6 months after that
-Went down to 2 mgs 6 months after that, (so aobut 2 years after starting again). I stayed at 2 mgs for over a year. I just finished school and was living with my dad. It just wasn't conducive to quitting for me.

-Now the good stuff: in May of this year I started to go lower than 2 mgs. I never switched to films, so was still on the generic tabs. I just started shaving pieces off with a razor blade (this was really annoying and inaccurate and I don't recommend it). However, I used markings on the pill to be consistent. I started going from 2- about .75. mgs. Stayed there for about a month. Jumped down to 1 mg about July of this year, and about mid july to .5 or so. Went down to aobut .25 and lower Aug 1st and jumped Aug 13th.

I will make another post about how I dropped and methods for coping but the take away for me on this was I could have gone to a lower dosage 2-3 mgs a lot faster and done the 2-0 slower. I was anxious to get off by the end, had just switched apartments and was in a new environment so I did it.

That's all for now folks. Keep it real. -P
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Re: 72 Days off Subs after 7 years

Postby cheeps » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:46 am

Good info Optimus prime! So many peeps here were unable to get off until thy had tried many times. It's common to get back on....you probably always knew in the back of your mind, subs weren't going to be with you forever. What kind of info did you know about subs....did you try other forums or read up on the shit?

90 will be here soon....you are having some PAW which is very normal....keep being active an exercise as much as you can! 8-)
10 yrs on methadone
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