Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Not Again » Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:00 pm

You have time. True love will endure anything.
Do not fret. U can do it . Millions have. But most try to stop from a much higher dose.
Guess what. Soon as you get the opies out. Sex life increases immediately.
Well it started happening when I got below 1 mg.
any questions feel free to start a thread in the sub sux section.
This was my second time quitting. From 400mg Oxy /day(roxys) Entered a Rehab and forced on a quick 24 day taper from 16 mg sub down to .125(mcg).
seemed to work out.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby oneshotatthislife » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:01 pm

Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement. Ive been on suboxone for about 4 years ( maybe more maybe less) and have pretty much always taken 1/4 of an 8mg pill (now the strips). So I'm afraid that the drug has a strong hold on my body and mind already. I do plan to slowly taper. But I am scared that once I stop completely its going to be hard. Sometimes I notice that I'm numb. So fucking numb to the world. I don't feel things like I used to. I have lost interest in things I once loved. I remember a time when music used to move me. Touch my soul. Now I don't really listen to anything. The only thing now that really touches me is her. My new love. I do have my ups and down and moments of happiness. I am depressed but not super depressed. I see a therapist but I don't tell them I'm on subs, do to the fact that you get judged differently when you're a known drug addict. Dr's tend to relate all your problems to drugs, and the fact that you're an addict. I am happy some days. Thing is I'm not sure if its just the subs keeping my mood stabilized. Im afraid when I finally quit I'll be totally numb and not worth a damn to anyone. I really hate this drug and dont think it should ever be used longer than a month. Sorry for the ramblings but does any one know the best way to taper from 2mg? Or know what thread may tell me?
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby mano » Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:30 pm

What you are feeling is normal and typical, and the good news is once you get off sub it all comes back....from your love of music to your emotions. You won't be numb...just the opposite. You are numbed now, once you quit your emotions will come back strong....along with your sex drive and a lot of other things.

But you are correct, even with the low dose you have been on, it does have a strong hold on you....and 2 mg's really is still a lot of opiate....Roughly equal to 100 mg's of morphine. For the record, most people are on higher doses, but it's when they get down to 2 mg's that the reductions get tougher....that's why I say very small reductions, especially if you're trying to keep things on the DL and you're in no rush.

1st off you should start your own thread so more people will see it and respond, and give you support.

What I would recommend is a very slow taper. Probably no more than 1/4 mg at a time. Make the reduction and stay at that dose for 1-2 weeks, until you are stable, then make the next drop...all the way down to 1/4 mg a day, then you can skip days, and finally jump off. Typically what happens with these small decreases is you'll feel off for a few days and then feel the same as you did at the higher dose.

Many people will suggest you come clean with your girl, and your shrink, but that's up to you.

So realistically, you could be ready to jump by early spring, which is a good time of year to jump. It's tougher doing it in the winter, especially if you are in a cold region. Warmth makes it a little easier.

Exercise is a huge help, even at this stage of reductions. There are plenty of comfort meds that can also makes things easier, like sleep aids, drugs to help with tension and anxiety, etc. You can get by with OTC stuff if need be, but prescription strength stuff is better.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Not Again » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:04 pm

mano wrote:What you are feeling is normal and typical, and the good news is once you get off sub it all comes back....from your love of music to your emotions. You won't be numb...just the opposite. You are numbed now, once you quit your emotions will come back strong....along with your sex drive and a lot of other things.

But you are correct, even with the low dose you have been on, it does have a strong hold on you....and 2 mg's really is still a lot of opiate....Roughly equal to 100 mg's of morphine. For the record, most people are on higher doses, but it's when they get down to 2 mg's that the reductions get tougher....that's why I say very small reductions, especially if you're trying to keep things on the DL and you're in no rush.

1st off you should start your own thread so more people will see it and respond, and give you support.

What I would recommend is a very slow taper. Probably no more than 1/4 mg at a time. Make the reduction and stay at that dose for 1-2 weeks, until you are stable, then make the next drop...all the way down to 1/4 mg a day, then you can skip days, and finally jump off. Typically what happens with these small decreases is you'll feel off for a few days and then feel the same as you did at the higher dose.

Many people will suggest you come clean with your girl, and your shrink, but that's up to you.

So realistically, you could be ready to jump by early spring, which is a good time of year to jump. It's tougher doing it in the winter, especially if you are in a cold region. Warmth makes it a little easier.

Exercise is a huge help, even at this stage of reductions. There are plenty of comfort meds that can also makes things easier, like sleep aids, drugs to help with tension and anxiety, etc. You can get by with OTC stuff if need be, but prescription strength stuff is better.


Mano, bravo. That's the best advice any could have given.

Oneshot, You will have to come clean with your girl. You have time to stop .A lot of people are legitimately on sub.

So don't be afraid. What I would do is just bring it up. She won't even know what sub is( and then you have told her).As time progresses tell her a little more about it. If you still feel funny, say you were scripted pain meds and this was your way off.

What ever happens, if she finds out after a long time passes. She will feel betrayed and lied to. That's what you want to avoid.

After what mano said , There's not much that could be added. Just wanted to touch on that.
This was my second time quitting. From 400mg Oxy /day(roxys) Entered a Rehab and forced on a quick 24 day taper from 16 mg sub down to .125(mcg).
seemed to work out.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Vitek » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:10 pm

oneshotatthislife wrote:Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement. Ive been on suboxone for about 4 years ( maybe more maybe less) and have pretty much always taken 1/4 of an 8mg pill (now the strips). So I'm afraid that the drug has a strong hold on my body and mind already. I do plan to slowly taper. But I am scared that once I stop completely its going to be hard. Sometimes I notice that I'm numb. So fucking numb to the world. I don't feel things like I used to. I have lost interest in things I once loved. I remember a time when music used to move me. Touch my soul. Now I don't really listen to anything. The only thing now that really touches me is her. My new love. I do have my ups and down and moments of happiness. I am depressed but not super depressed. I see a therapist but I don't tell them I'm on subs, do to the fact that you get judged differently when you're a known drug addict. Dr's tend to relate all your problems to drugs, and the fact that you're an addict. I am happy some days. Thing is I'm not sure if its just the subs keeping my mood stabilized. Im afraid when I finally quit I'll be totally numb and not worth a damn to anyone. I really hate this drug and dont think it should ever be used longer than a month. Sorry for the ramblings but does any one know the best way to taper from 2mg? Or know what thread may tell me?


Dude, as long as you slowly taper and I mean slowly, you should be fine. You'll definately be the best judge of how you're feeling. Some people prefer to just jump off and deal with it. I just can't do it anymore. I COULD but I have to function, even at 20%. There are some pretty decent taper guides out there and I assume on here. It all depends on how long you've used it. Also, in regards to your chick -- I think you'll be fine. Just come clean man. It may make your relationship stronger AND make your suboxone use (if you decide that) and/or taper that much easier. Stress intensifies all w/d friend.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Vitek » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:52 pm

I'm extremely curious about the use of SOAs. I did this in the past, relapsed and became hooked again.
I too struggled to find 'normalcy.'

Are the SOAs used for the physical w/d or the mental w/d?
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby CTCheryl » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:54 am

Oneshot, please hang in there. I relate to your loss of emotion. But I guarantee you, once you are around 2 -3 months off this crap, your love of music will come back to you even stronger. This has happened to me several times now.
Emotional connections take a little longer, but they also come back. I know you are hurting now, I can tell, but just keep at this. I promise, it will get better and better.

Vitek- I never had a good experience using SAO to get off LAO, never. I always ended up back in the soup.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby wallieb325 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:04 am

okay so this is my first time to this forum. I have been addicted to opiates for 8 years and then suboxone for 8 years I have tried to detox on several occasions without any success I have been left financially in position where I have no other reason is to detox I tapered myself down to four milligram and now I am on my 6th day without suboxone. Now I have been taking clonidine to help me sleep I have noticed on the 5th and 6th night I've had difficulty sleeping I have increased my dosage to another tablet of clonidine I'm hoping that that will help because I've been through detox off suboxone before without any age whatsoever and the insomnia insomnia and restless leg syndrome is horrific f******
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby mano » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:26 am

Hey walli, and welcome. Sub has a really long half life and it stacks up in your system. 4 mg's is also a very hefty dose to jump from. I'd say the reason you are now having trouble sleeping is the sub is finally clearing your system. it often takes 4-6 days. I'd say you need to either taper down further, get some better comfort meds, like a benzo, or be prepared for one hell of a detox.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Cole » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:04 am

Hey. I'm new here. I was looking up long term effects of this "miracle" drug and stumbled upon this site. I feel pretty scatter brained today so sorry if im jumping around.
I'm 26 years old..female.. I've been addicted to opiates for too long . I tried percocet for the first time around 15-16 years old.. I've been on suboxone for 3-4 years on and off... both of my parents uare addicts and shared/sold percs to me. My father passed away (addiction related) and my mother is now using suboxone with me and percs when she can find them.. but enough about that.. I came to the conclusion that when I do quit I won't recognize that normal feeling..I was a young teen before addiction.. not a complete person. Hell, I was a wreck in a mental hospital at 15 before addiction set in for attempting suicide. This numb feeling is my normal? Fuck. :suicide2:

Atleast I never lost being moved by music.. I play music constantly to calm my thoughts.. it annoys my bf. Time to turn up some NIN :)


- Any ways... anyone notice any long term effects?
Last edited by Cole on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby mynameisDAN82 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:25 am

Cole, it does not have to be your new normal.. I myself, started at a young age as well, my normal now is a hell of a lot better than it was on suboxone.. your young, you will heal quickly! just focus on getting back to your "real normal", even though you probably forgot what that even is..

Sorry for your loss, that's tough I'm sure...
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Cole » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:37 am

Thanks.. I'm just feeling hopeless today and wanted to rant. I feel like this part of my life is never ending.. I have a son of my own now who was born premature probably due to using subutex during pregnancy. I grew up with addicts and ended up broken myself... I don't want the same for my son so I really hope to beat this shit.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby mynameisDAN82 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:53 am

Cole wrote:Thanks.. I'm just feeling hopeless today and wanted to rant. I feel like this part of my life is never ending.. I have a son of my own now who was born premature probably due to using subutex during pregnancy. I grew up with addicts and ended up broken myself... I don't want the same for my son so I really hope to beat this shit.


I felt the same way.. A history of addicts in my family, once I had my son come into my life, I wanted to stop that tradition.. He deserves better than I, as your son deserves better than you.. feel free to start a thread, rant and bitch all you want! We welcome that here :thumbup:
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby EJSLP » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:00 pm

I am so happy i found this site!
This is the ONLY web site that actually tells it like it is.
I suffer from most of things said here that are negative about using sub long term(2-7 years?)
I have been on it for 2 years now and everyday i feel like i am in WD!(sure the first 9 months were great but after that all downhill!)
what kind of life is this i have? to feel just like you would if you quit oxys a day or two ago and the WD's are kicking in? Thats how i feel everyday on this sub shit! :banghead: tired,weak,chills,slight fever,edgey,no motivation nausea,etc
And this is the case regardless of how much sub i take, and i know i HAVE TO get off this shit if i ever hope to be/feel normal again? IMHO suboxone is the worst most horrible drug i ever got involved with :thumbdown:
yes indeed i agree SUBSUX!!!!
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby PAWSChick » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:30 pm

ratch wrote::evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Buprenorphine SUCKS and the name of this website is SUBSUX for a fucking reason. If you want to hear lies and bullshit and have sunshine pumped up your ass than please feel free to go to almost any other detox/addiction related site on the web. If you want to read actual unedited experiences that aren't sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies or filled with suboxone promoting sub sucking zombies telling the "victim" that the reason their wd's are lasting so long is that they tapered wrong, or that it wasnt the sub but all the drugs they did prior to sub, or depression than you're in the right place. I say uncensored and unedited because other sites will actually "remove" posts that speak out against sub, or delete posts from people that post their truthful not-so-good jump experiences. So you have websites filled with "sub success stories" and a bunch of clowns that actually believe it all as gospel that will chase you away for simply telling the truth. I dont edit or remove any posts from "good sub stories", Its just that the good stories are so far and few, and many sub users are content to take a opioid for the rest of their lives because their Dr tells them its ok. In other words there arent that many jumpers!...yet!

***News Flash***
Doctors get their sub info from the pharmaceutical reps that supply them the sub, and from research paid for by these companies, so dont be surprised if what your Dr tells you may not always be accurate. It would be a fair guess that this site contains more negative information about sub than anywhere else on the web, but clinical trials that produce negative results are simply scrapped because there is no financial gain or support for a report that will take money out of the big pharmaceutical pockets. I am not a conspiracy theorist, this is just fact. Produce a trial with negative results as to the duration of acute withdrawals and PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms), and just try to get it sponsored or published and see how many roadblocks and lawsuits you run into.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

:deadhorse: I know

Why is sub so much harder to get off of ? And why is UROD and Naltrexone a waste of time with sub...
And why is using regular opioids to get off sub not such a bad idea.

Oh and "SAO" means Short Acting Opioid ..like pain pills/morphine

When you do regular opioids on a daily basis, there are peaks and lows in your high. Not always detectable but present. And if you sleep longer than 4 hours a night while using opioids, chances are when you wake up you are reaching for your next dose to fight off the cusp of wd's. To fight the lack of opioids, the brain will fire aminos/proteins to try to get you to feel normal again....until your next dose. These changes gives the brain a small but noticeable point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids, and that is what the slight uncomfortable feeling or slight onset of wd's is, the brain trying to regulate. This is all due to the 4 hr 1/2 life of all SAO's. Your brain still has a tiny pathway to normalcy again and will eventually find its way back to normal in a week or two for most people.

Now take a drug like buprenorphine (Sub) or methadone, these drugs have ridiculously long 1/2 lives, 34+ hours. So not only is the dose you just took saturating the brain for the next 34 hours, but so is the doses you took for the past week. Basically you are getting a "steady high" and the brain has no way to create a point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids. (almost never slight wd's, mental stuff perhaps, but actual wd's almost never) Not only does the brain lose its way back to normalcy so to speak, but the search for normalcy, the brain firing of signals to feel good again is almost non existent... no reason with drugs that are by design made to keep you high "all the time".. So not only does the brain have no point of reference as to what "normal" without opioids feels like, but sparking up the endocrine gland/pituitary to produce the signals/proteins needed to feel good again is fucking rusty with sub or methadone...with SAO's it fires everyday!!!

So when you do a treatment like UROD or Naltrexone for sub, the drug is stripped/blocked from your brain and you are no longer dependent. But your brain is still lost. You may have snuck past the initial wd's which are not only mild at best due to the agonizingly long time it takes sub to leave your body, but you will not only get hit with PAWS which are the brains search for normalcy again, but you just passed the initial mapping phase which IS the wd's that you just avoided with UROD or naltrexone to begin with.

For SAO's I dont see any issues except for the extreme danger and loss of life that UROD procedures have. You are getting a shortcut!

But with sub, you are making things much harder in the long run, because sub wd's arent the rough part. The rough part is how fucking long it takes your brain to find its way back to normal again and with UROD/Naltrexone you just passed step one.

This is why "switching" to SAO's is a unorthodox but productive way for people to combat long term PAWS. Its a hard concept to wrap around...getting re-addicted to the same shit I got on sub for to begin with.. which is one of the cornerstones of this website. Subsux! Why start a drug that is more trouble than its worth to begin with. Yes there are some extreme cases where damage control supersedes the long term effects, but that decision needs to be deeply considered.


This is all so very true. I also hear what you're saying about taking staggered doses of SAOs… I was put on an Ultram taper at one point during one of my attempts to quit and it helped considerably. At the end I had to kick the Ultram, but it was only three days or so of a little discomfort. I don't think there's anything morally wrong with using SAOs to get off Suboxen or Methadone. The deal is just that you have to make sure you don't get in the original pickle you were in that caused you to go on Suboxen in the first place. Even if you do, it's most likely much easier to up and quit morphine than to quit Suboxen or Methadone. The stuff is inherently evil in it pharmokinetic mechanism of being so long acting! (Which you explained really well by the way). I am glad that someone has created a forum where people can tell their true horror stories with Suboxen without censorship! Thank you! The thing that I'm undecided about however, is whether or not Suboxen should continue to be available. A lot of peoples' lives really have been saved from this medication, yet at the same time, millions more have had nothing but more problems or ended up prolonging the goal they were trying to achieve. Perhaps it should just be regulated better. For example, in my case, the Suboxen that was given to me for depression did significantly help and it did save me from ending myself. However, it would've been MUCH more appropriate to have given it to me for say, a couple weeks or a month vs. 3.5 years. It's those sort of screw ups that make this substance so controversial. There should be better guidelines on how it should be used - for the doctors, I mean.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby justduke1 » Wed May 07, 2014 3:28 pm

I have been battling this hell of trying to get off subs for 2 months. I decided to go cold turkey for 2 weeks of complete hell and took a small piece. I was sick of feeling like hell and didn't think it would set me back the way it has. I have been doing minimal amounts of the strips and find that after about 3 days, I don't want to get out of bed once again and feel like I've wasted all this time in going through this pain. I just want to be able to function and have done a total of a 8 mg strip since I went cold turkey. Can someone please give me a recipe to be done with subs and be functional. I seen where people were able to work after being clean for 10 days and that is bs. I was on oxys for 2 years and subs for a little more than 2 years. I would appreciate any advice.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby mynameisDAN82 » Wed May 07, 2014 4:32 pm

Jd.. I was able to work, so its not total bs.. Yes its hard, but there is no secret to making it easier.. If you can get some neurontin, it will help :thumbup: also, keep hydrated, eat well and exercise. What was it that got to you the most? Anxiety? Insomnia? Motivation issues?

Welcome, feel free to start a tread, you will get more input :D
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby SuBloz » Wed May 07, 2014 5:55 pm

Yeah start you own thread....it helps, and post in it daily. Do you have a Dr you get some comfort meds? I suggest doing so, sleep was or is the worst thing for me, just hang in there and ditch the SUB, its not doing you any good.

Just remember that everything you feel is your body trying to heal...I know its easy to say but its the truth.

Stay tough, there is a lot of support here.....and post as much as you can.
Jump date - 4/3/14, 4mg...after 4 years of Sub.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:43 am

wallieb325 wrote:I have been left financially in position where I have no other reason is to detox


Consider yourself lucky. IMHO there's no more effective way to get off opioids. When you have no money to buy pills...believe me...you'll successfully quit. Worked for me...and if I hadn't run out of money at the time, I'd probably still be popping pills.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby HugitoutB » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:53 am

I read Ratch's thread about 15 months ago and thought he was sort of nuts and there was no issue with suboxone. I had a 2 year vicodin habit (1 year from constant surgeries, then a year of just pure old couldn't kick it). I got on the suboxone and it seemed liked everyone here was REALLY nuts because I thought it was the best thing since Chicago style deep dish. 14 months later, after being numb to practically everything and trying to taper several times, I had one of those, holy sh*t moments. It was 2-3x as bad as I remember trying to kick the vicodin habit (3-5x per day of 10mg). I recently banged my knee that I had had surgically repaired and went and saw my regular doctor. He offered something for the pain and I thought, well, I could go back on vicodin and then actually make a real effort to quit.

I started them back up after my 2nd day of no sub's and I got no real feelings from them, but they cancelled out the withdraws. I handed over the vicodin to my wife immediately upon getting them because we both agreed it was worth a shot and this had to stop. She was convinced becaused she had been looking into the rapid detox thing for me and found that the sub "rapid" detox was 8-9 days whereas the opioite one was 3 days. I've managed to keep a balance and keep moving and working while staying on only 10mg's a day of vicodin and I'm on day 8 with no sub's. We're tapering down 2.5mg's every 7 days starting in another two days when we reach day 10 with no sub's. Then, running it weekly or even less until we're at nothing. It might not work perfectly, but it seems like a little window for me to escape; especially if I'm determined to do so. I know from this long of an addition (3y 3m) that I've got to want to stay clean and have the support. That and most people have it a LOT worse than I do so no feeling sorry for myself for deeling with some sweating and anxiety. I've got myself a nice stash of valium to help with the withdrawals when and if they happen to the severity that I need them.

There's not much info on making the switch and no much info on cutting out the SAO after the sub's except for a lot of people have not had success. I kind of want to get one of those Naltrexone shots once a month for a few months so I have no choice but to deal with life. I know my addiction isn't just a pill. In fact, I stopped vicodin after that first year of surgeries for almost a month and wasn't having the physical cravings; it was mental. I've been attending sessions with a counselor for a few weeks now and of course let them know what I was doing. Dealing with life with sobriety can be a challenge and I failed at that once before, so I'm not going through this alone.

I thought I'd take the time to at least write back on here about how suboxone solved none of my problems and wasn't some magical fix that the sub dox claim it to be. I actually even went to three different ones. One place had a straight up lunatic who I just called Dr. Sub. He said you can stay on this stuff forever if you need, no big deal and if you need more, you need more. He was the Dr. that I felt cared the least about my actual well-being. I actually want to turn them into somebody. I think I stumbled onto a Dr. Feelgood clinic that just takes cash/credit, no insurance, and charges exhorbitant rates. You could ask for whatever you wanted to though. Just a pain clinic chop shop. I luckily got out of there with only two visits. Dude was a piece of sh.

Anyway, cheers to everybody, everybody make it as good a day as you can make it.
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