Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby ratch » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:55 pm

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Buprenorphine SUCKS and the name of this website is SUBSUX for a fucking reason. If you want to hear lies and bullshit and have sunshine pumped up your ass than please feel free to go to almost any other detox/addiction related site on the web. If you want to read actual unedited experiences that aren't sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies or filled with suboxone promoting sub sucking zombies telling the "victim" that the reason their wd's are lasting so long is that they tapered wrong, or that it wasnt the sub but all the drugs they did prior to sub, or depression than you're in the right place. I say uncensored and unedited because other sites will actually "remove" posts that speak out against sub, or delete posts from people that post their truthful not-so-good jump experiences. So you have websites filled with "sub success stories" and a bunch of clowns that actually believe it all as gospel that will chase you away for simply telling the truth. I dont edit or remove any posts from "good sub stories", Its just that the good stories are so far and few, and many sub users are content to take a opioid for the rest of their lives because their Dr tells them its ok. In other words there arent that many jumpers!...yet!

***News Flash***
Doctors get their sub info from the pharmaceutical reps that supply them the sub, and from research paid for by these companies, so dont be surprised if what your Dr tells you may not always be accurate. It would be a fair guess that this site contains more negative information about sub than anywhere else on the web, but clinical trials that produce negative results are simply scrapped because there is no financial gain or support for a report that will take money out of the big pharmaceutical pockets. I am not a conspiracy theorist, this is just fact. Produce a trial with negative results as to the duration of acute withdrawals and PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms), and just try to get it sponsored or published and see how many roadblocks and lawsuits you run into.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

:deadhorse: I know

Why is sub so much harder to get off of ? And why is UROD and Naltrexone a waste of time with sub...
And why is using regular opioids to get off sub not such a bad idea.

Oh and "SAO" means Short Acting Opioid ..like pain pills/morphine

When you do regular opioids on a daily basis, there are peaks and lows in your high. Not always detectable but present. And if you sleep longer than 4 hours a night while using opioids, chances are when you wake up you are reaching for your next dose to fight off the cusp of wd's. To fight the lack of opioids, the brain will fire aminos/proteins to try to get you to feel normal again....until your next dose. These changes gives the brain a small but noticeable point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids, and that is what the slight uncomfortable feeling or slight onset of wd's is, the brain trying to regulate. This is all due to the 4 hr 1/2 life of all SAO's. Your brain still has a tiny pathway to normalcy again and will eventually find its way back to normal in a week or two for most people.

Now take a drug like buprenorphine (Sub) or methadone, these drugs have ridiculously long 1/2 lives, 34+ hours. So not only is the dose you just took saturating the brain for the next 34 hours, but so is the doses you took for the past week. Basically you are getting a "steady high" and the brain has no way to create a point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids. (almost never slight wd's, mental stuff perhaps, but actual wd's almost never) Not only does the brain lose its way back to normalcy so to speak, but the search for normalcy, the brain firing of signals to feel good again is almost non existent... no reason with drugs that are by design made to keep you high "all the time".. So not only does the brain have no point of reference as to what "normal" without opioids feels like, but sparking up the endocrine gland/pituitary to produce the signals/proteins needed to feel good again is fucking rusty with sub or methadone...with SAO's it fires everyday!!!

So when you do a treatment like UROD or Naltrexone for sub, the drug is stripped/blocked from your brain and you are no longer dependent. But your brain is still lost. You may have snuck past the initial wd's which are not only mild at best due to the agonizingly long time it takes sub to leave your body, but you will not only get hit with PAWS which are the brains search for normalcy again, but you just passed the initial mapping phase which IS the wd's that you just avoided with UROD or naltrexone to begin with.

For SAO's I dont see any issues except for the extreme danger and loss of life that UROD procedures have. You are getting a shortcut!

But with sub, you are making things much harder in the long run, because sub wd's arent the rough part. The rough part is how fucking long it takes your brain to find its way back to normal again and with UROD/Naltrexone you just passed step one.

This is why "switching" to SAO's is a unorthodox but productive way for people to combat long term PAWS. Its a hard concept to wrap around...getting re-addicted to the same shit I got on sub for to begin with.. which is one of the cornerstones of this website. Subsux! Why start a drug that is more trouble than its worth to begin with. Yes there are some extreme cases where damage control supersedes the long term effects, but that decision needs to be deeply considered.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:54 am

ratch wrote:Now take a drug like buprenorphine (Sub) or methadone, these drugs have ridiculously long 1/2 lives, 34+ hours. So not only is the dose you just took saturating the brain for the next 34 hours, but so is the doses you took for the past week. Basically you are getting a "steady high" and the brain has no way to create a point of reference on how you are supposed to feel without opioids. (almost never slight wd's, mental stuff perhaps, but actual wd's almost never) Not only does the brain lose its way back to normalcy so to speak, but the search for normalcy, the brain firing of signals to feel good again is almost non existent... no reason with drugs that are by design made to keep you high "all the time".. So not only does the brain have no point of reference as to what "normal" without opioids feels like, but sparking up the endocrine gland/pituitary to produce the signals/proteins needed to feel good again is fucking rusty with sub or methadone...with SAO's it fires everyday!!!


Good "article" Ratch...even I learned something new - despite being off the shit for almost 2-1/2 years. Your paragraph above brings up another question. You say the brain loses its reference point...I believe that's the case...it sure felt like it for many months after quitting. So...when and how does the brain return to "normal" or pre-use function? I was on Sub and methadone for year(s)...my brain definitely lost it's map during that time...so it leaves me wondering how, or by what mechanism, it gets back to normal...if ever? I can honestly say that after I quit for good, it took me like 2 years before the familiar old "me" returned. I'm just wondering why it took so long I guess.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby cheeps » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:42 pm

SZ.....It took me 14-18 months before I could say most of my PAWS was on the down side. When my 3 year came up, I could say I was 85% the person I used to be......

Worst long term effect.....no motivation, procrastination.
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2017 Oxy taper in progress
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:02 pm

Yeah cheeps, that's what's weird about quitting. After you've been off a good while, you think you are finally "done"...but then you notice that you keep getting better. Just in the last three months I've noticed that something is dramatically different - compared to the last two years of clean time. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm suddenly interested in things I used to do years ago...before getting into opioids. After I started using regularly, I kind of drifted away from my old lifestyle...but suddenly it's back. Also am sleeping on a regular "shift"...not bouncing around the clock...and my appetite and everything else has seemed to have stabilized...whereas for many months after quitting I was subject to ups and downs. I guess I think I really am healed this time...but as time goes by, maybe I will get even better. That's just fine by me :D
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby cheeps » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:25 pm

I wish we knew more about the timeframe....but 3 years seems to be the marker for full recovery.
10 yrs on methadone
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Justjules13 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:01 am

I hate hearing that! (but I do think being honest is important here) I'm the most impatient person in the world. I think I need to start working on excepting it's going to take a long time and being patient....
Even if you fall on your face, you're still moving forward.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:09 am

Jules - I wouldn't get discouraged by anything we've written above. Believe me, it's definitely worth quitting...once you get past the acute stage, it's tolerable. The PAWS are just a minor annoyance and don't really interfere with one's daily routine...but they piss you off because you've been clean for 6 months or a year and you don't feel like you deserve them at that point. I think what cheeps and I are referring to is that, after you have been off for a couple years, true "normal" sneaks in on you...and you're surprised by it because you thought you had healed completely. It's like "damn...I haven't felt like this since the 1990's etc." IDK it's hard to explain...I'm sure Ratch could say it much more eloquently than I have here.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Justjules13 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:20 am

Well....it's good to hear they are not debilitating...I can deal with annoying.
I'm just feeling a bit sorry for myself today...no worries. Thanks Zero.
Even if you fall on your face, you're still moving forward.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby nootlsjr » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:03 am

congrats and forever suxcess. peace.
Last edited by nootlsjr on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:04 am

One thing is for sure...I will never fall into this trap again. If I'm ever tempted with opioids...it won't be the acute phase which I remember, but rather the lllooonnnggg 2 years following the acute phase. I could probably tough out an acute Sub WD again...but I can't stand the thought of re-experiencing the many many months of shit which follows after the acute phase. There's nothing on this Earth worth enduring that again.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby MyPainIsYours » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:30 pm

Agree sub. Those long months following are the thing that will stick with me forever. I'm only 9 months clean but feeling better mentally as time passes!
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby True85 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:37 pm

Congrats everyone on your success. Im in my 9 th month. Mentally i still sometimes have a rough time. I grind my teeth woth anxiety at times. My brain screams at me to use. But it will not happen. I have been through too much and I am greatful for these tough times because I am gaining stregnth. Someone said i could prolong my withdrawal by using antidepressants. How can this be true. I eventually plan on getting off of this too. Take care everyone.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby ratch » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:07 pm

Now I just want to be clear. At the 6mos to 1 year mark we feel mostly normal... BUT many of us still have energy/motivation issues where we need an extra "push" to get into gear...best described as the "bump on a log phase", its at this point where it gets impossible to measure progress. Its at this point that our brain needs to find its "new normal" and just get used to what normal life feels like without being high everyday is. I always say shoot for a year, because if we go on vacation or are preoccupied with something that keeps us busy..we don't think about it or even notice that we still feel "off" a year or even two after jumping. Its not that we are still in PAWS, but we are still getting adjusted to our new skin.

Reality check here...even regular people dont wake up with sunshine shooting out their ass and the desire to climb Mount Everest every morning...That feeling is reserved for people that are high every fucking day... and we all already know where that landed us. Its a false bravado crock-of-shit smokescreen that comes with a heavy price monetarily, mentally, and physically. So we need to find a new fucking normal and learn to accept the way we feel. I don't want to scare anyone, but it took me almost 3 years to plant that flag and claim "I am finally healed" ... I still need to drink more coffee, and I also cant do the tasks I once did, and if I really sit and think about it I can drive myself insane wondering if the sub actually damaged my brain.

But I also do the math... I started daily opioids in the early 90's, Sub in 1998, and I jumped in 2005... So I really haven't felt straight or perfect in 20 +years...when I was around 25 years OLD!!!! How the fuck am I ever supposed to gauge what is "perfect" for a 25 year compared to now being a 45 year old? And YES I know the question you are all asking yourselves right now. I did "try" opioids in 2007 for 11 days total, spaced out over 3 or 4 months (I was scared to get re-addicted so I spaced my little anti-PAWS "experiment" out intentionally) and not only did they NOT make me feel like that 25 year old again, or even better, I actually felt wonky and nodding out from trying so hard to feel good again. There was no instant fix, no magic reset button.. I was 20 fucking years older and I have to fucking accept it.

For all you sub suckers reading this, you better think long and hard about delaying the inevitable because I doubt many of us here jumped because sub made us feel "perfect" or "normal" forever. Nor did it continue to be effective forever. Because I have said this many times before, if the sub continued to work for me I would have never quit. And if I knew then what I know now, I would have quit years earlier when I was younger, and grew into this older body naturally. The longer you stay on, the longer you are fucking yourself..and not in a good way! You are theoretically Cryopreserving your brain's memory of youth and thawing it out into an older body. I guess its more of a dilemma than a medical condition. I guess you can call me some crazy "anti-sub" fucker that has nothing better to do with his time than rant about how evil and horrible sub is for shits-and-giggles. And I am sure there are also an unfortunate few of you that read the exact opposite on Suboxone.com or suboxtalkzone and still take their bullshit as gospel, and you still believe that you can stay on sub forever or jump off without batting an eye.. Well I may be just one crazy over-opinionated mother fucker who has a potty mouth and a individual sub "horror story" to tell, but how do you explain the 100's of identical stories from all my other members and other websites, and how we all seem to have the exact same problems and symptoms months, even years post sub?

For all you newcomers... If you think I am some anti-drug lunatic or some AA/NA program person I suggest you sit down, have a beer or smoke a joint and do a little more reading because that couldn't be further from the truth. And if you think I am taking my "12th step" by operating this site and you are a cute female please by all means come join me for a "13th step" and have a beer with me. Because if anyone familiar with the "Big Book" or the "basic text" knows, I just committed sacrilege typing the last paragraph. I am just a guy that thinks SUB SUCKS and I want to live life on my terms.. and FYI I haven't smoked pot in 25 years and I only drink once or twice a year if the occasion arises, nothing else.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Unhookedfromsub » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:35 pm

ratch wrote:Now I just want to be clear. At the 6mos to 1 year mark we feel mostly normal... BUT many of us still have energy/motivation issues where we need an extra "push" to get into gear...best described as the "bump on a log phase", its at this point where it gets impossible to measure progress. Its at this point that our brain needs to find its "new normal" and just get used to what normal life feels like without being high everyday is. I always say shoot for a year, because if we go on vacation or are preoccupied with something that keeps us busy..we don't think about it or even notice that we still feel "off" a year or even two after jumping. Its not that we are still in PAWS, but we are still getting adjusted to our new skin.

Reality check here...even regular people dont wake up with sunshine shooting out their ass and the desire to climb Mount Everest every morning...That feeling is reserved for people that are high every fucking day... and we all already know where that landed us. Its a false bravado crock-of-shit smokescreen that comes with a heavy price monetarily, mentally, and physically. So we need to find a new fucking normal and learn to accept the way we feel. I don't want to scare anyone, but it took me almost 3 years to plant that flag and claim "I am finally healed" ... I still need to drink more coffee, and I also cant do the tasks I once did, and if I really sit and think about it I can drive myself insane wondering if the sub actually damaged my brain.

But I also do the math... I started daily opioids in the early 90's, Sub in 1998, and I jumped in 2005... So I really haven't felt straight or perfect in 20 +years...when I was around 25 years OLD!!!! How the fuck am I ever supposed to gauge what is "perfect" for a 25 year compared to now being a 45 year old? And YES I know the question you are all asking yourselves right now. I did "try" opioids in 2007 for 11 days total, spaced out over 3 or 4 months (I was scared to get re-addicted so I spaced my little anti-PAWS "experiment" out intentionally) and not only did they NOT make me feel like that 25 year old again, or even better, I actually felt wonky and nodding out from trying so hard to feel good again. There was no instant fix, no magic reset button.. I was 20 fucking years older and I have to fucking accept it.

For all you sub suckers reading this, you better think long and hard about delaying the inevitable because I doubt many of us here jumped because sub made us feel "perfect" or "normal" forever. Nor did it continue to be effective forever. Because I have said this many times before, if the sub continued to work for me I would have never quit. And if I knew then what I know now, I would have quit years earlier when I was younger, and grew into this older body naturally. The longer you stay on, the longer you are fucking yourself..and not in a good way! You are theoretically Cryopreserving your brain's memory of youth and thawing it out into an older body. I guess its more of a dilemma than a medical condition. I guess you can call me some crazy "anti-sub" fucker that has nothing better to do with his time than rant about how evil and horrible sub is for shits-and-giggles. And I am sure there are also an unfortunate few of you that read the exact opposite on Suboxone.com or suboxtalkzone and still take their bullshit as gospel, and you still believe that you can stay on sub forever or jump off without batting an eye.. Well I may be just one crazy over-opinionated mother fucker who has a potty mouth and a individual sub "horror story" to tell, but how do you explain the 100's of identical stories from all my other members and other websites, and how we all seem to have the exact same problems and symptoms months, even years post sub?

For all you newcomers... If you think I am some anti-drug lunatic or some AA/NA program person I suggest you sit down, have a beer or smoke a joint and do a little more reading because that couldn't be further from the truth. And if you think I am taking my "12th step" by operating this site and you are a cute female please by all means come join me for a "13th step" and have a beer with me. Because if anyone familiar with the "Big Book" or the "basic text" knows, I just committed sacrilege typing the last paragraph. I am just a guy that thinks SUB SUCKS and I want to live life on my terms.. and FYI I haven't smoked pot in 25 years and I only drink once or twice a year if the occasion arises, nothing else.




Ratch I'm so fucking with you on all this it isn't funny!
All I can say FUCK ME!!!!!
I swore you just got into my fucking head!
That's a very scary place to be,
run while you still can my friend!

Unchango......... my new nick....................................
Stopped taking the evil man-made drug called Subutex 9/17/2012

02/08/15 - 02/14/15 hopefully!
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Unhookedfromsub » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:47 pm

"Reality check here...even regular people dont wake up with sunshine shooting out their ass and the desire to climb Mount Everest every morning"

Actually one time in my life I did and I could do just about anything, wake up run 10 miles, train you name it, but sadly that time has came and went! Now I'm trying to live like an older person and it is killing me!
I think that is my biggest reason I started this shit. I feel that after those surgeries I wasn't what I was before the injuries, not even remotely but that shit made me feel like super man! No shit!
Dude if I was to even try half of some of the stunts that I did while on that shit, I'd now say to you "you want me to do what? FUCK THAT!"!
I'm 49 now, I lost that razor edge that I had for so long but my mind still thinks I have it and buddy I don't have half of it anymore, and I'm really not able to cope with that quite yet!
Man I used to laugh at mid-age crisis stories, but, it isn't so fucking funny when you're the star!
Stopped taking the evil man-made drug called Subutex 9/17/2012

02/08/15 - 02/14/15 hopefully!
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:01 pm

I think Sub ruined my ability to feel any sort of strong emotion or reaction. Just the other day I stunbled across some reaction videos on Youtube - vids of peoples faces as they watched "2 girls 1 cup"...well, I decided to check out the video myself and I just sat through it like I was watching an infomercial. Same happened for the "japanese fish ass" video. Neither phased me in any way. Other people get grossed out...yet I'm just like duuh. I blame it on the Sub.
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Justjules13 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:36 am

Unhooked, you cracked me up! I like you...and can relate. I've just found less body bruising activities to expand my mind and fill my time. It used to like surfing and dirt bike riding...now it's museums and travel. Granted...looking at the Mona Lisa doesn't evoke the same endorphin rush that spending the day in the sun and surf did...but it's still fun.
Zero..I relate to that feeling sometimes too. I recently went and saw the "night watch" and just thought "yeah, what's all the fuss about, it's just a big painting" and I had the same reaction to the Mona Lisa, except it's tiny..lol...but looking into the eyes of a VanGouh self portrait brought tears to my eyes. I know there are things that still touch your soul, don't sell yourself short. So stupid videos aren't your thing... My BF covers his eyes during bloody movies. They don't phase me...but a image of a abused animal makes me want to kill the slime that hurt it. So...I'm sure I wouldn't be too grossed out by a viral utube clip either....In other words, I think we are at least "semi" normal...lol
J
Even if you fall on your face, you're still moving forward.
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Pills and IV Morphine- 1985-1999
Methadone maintenance- 1999-May 23,2011 (140mg, tapering to 10 mg)
Suboxone-slow taper to zero, very minimal WD (jump date 12/9/14)
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby nootlsjr » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:27 am

Sub zero wrote:I think Sub ruined my ability to feel any sort of strong emotion or reaction. Just the other day I stunbled across some reaction videos on Youtube - vids of peoples faces as they watched "2 girls 1 cup"...well, I decided to check out the video myself and I just sat through it like I was watching an infomercial. Same happened for the "japanese fish ass" video. Neither phased me in any way. Other people get grossed out...yet I'm just like duuh. I blame it on the Sub.



subzero, i looked up to you on my early jumps and appreaciate your strenth/determination.

may i suggest a spark of enthuseasm, like bungy jumping or sky diving. it might spark some connections that are confused or disconnected. i like fast bikes because they scare the shit out of me. it causes the brain to be in a semi shock phase and maybe helps awarness. try something exstreme to kick start that brain of yours.

eitherway, i give you the utmost respect, because i know how it feels just to be ok, but it didnt last for me. sorry your having such a hard time healing and reassemblying natural contributes.[wether its mental,physicle, or emotional].
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby runthemachine » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:23 pm

nootlsjr wrote:
Sub zero wrote:I think Sub ruined my ability to feel any sort of strong emotion or reaction. Just the other day I stunbled across some reaction videos on Youtube - vids of peoples faces as they watched "2 girls 1 cup"...well, I decided to check out the video myself and I just sat through it like I was watching an infomercial. Same happened for the "japanese fish ass" video. Neither phased me in any way. Other people get grossed out...yet I'm just like duuh. I blame it on the Sub.



subzero, i looked up to you on my early jumps and appreaciate your strenth/determination.

may i suggest a spark of enthuseasm, like bungy jumping or sky diving. it might spark some connections that are confused or disconnected. i like fast bikes because they scare the shit out of me. it causes the brain to be in a semi shock phase and maybe helps awarness. try something exstreme to kick start that brain of yours.

eitherway, i give you the utmost respect, because i know how it feels just to be ok, but it didnt last for me. sorry your having such a hard time healing and reassemblying natural contributes.[wether its mental,physicle, or emotional].


... you're so Bailey, troll.

Throwing up, now.... :sick:
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Re: Sub is evil shit! and 3 questions answered

Postby Sub zero » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:27 pm

Thanks noots. I just feel like a piece of dead meat...and I guess I expected better at the 2-1/2 year mark. Good idea about jumping out of a plane...or doing something else crazy enough to scare the shit outta me. I could always head out to Oklahoma this spring and get a tornado to chase my ass. Maybe it will jar my brain awake again.
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