My Taper Journal

Sub Sucks and if you havent figured that out yet.. please read a few posts

Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Sub4Sevenyrs » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:16 pm

DietDoc wrote: A couple people wrote to me saying that I had made it to such a low dose but I don't see 0.8 a low at all. I see it as the beginning. 0.8 mg is the halfway point between 16 mg and 0.01 mg.


I'm not sure where you got this from. If you take 16mg for one week, you will have over 40mgs in your blood due to the build up since the half life is so long.

If you take 0.8 mg, you will have more like 2mg after a week circulating in your blood plasma.

40 mg vs 2 mg = NO COMPARISON. I'm not sure why you refuse to see the progress you've made. I understand being cautious but rewards are going to heal you, putting them off does you more harm than good. You would benefit from feeling that pride and releasing those endorphins naturally. You will stabilize if you stay on that dose, although don't expect to feel like you did at 2mg, it's a huge difference, you are overlooking that by saying 0.8 is halfway between 16 and 0.01 which is nonsense.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:39 pm

So when I write that 0.8 mg is half way between 16 mg and basically 0 mg I'm not referencing blood levels and half lifes. It's not a quantitative analysis, it's a qualitative one. I mean effort, struggle, suffering, discomfort. Meaning you can be at a 95% lower dose than you were but only 50% there.

My problem is I feel awful. Lethargic is an understatement. I can't move and have no energy but I can't sleep at all either. I have all manner of comfort meds and none of them have ever afforded me much comfort at all.

I thought I had this. I really don't feel like I do. All I can do is try to work at my over all lifestyle a bit harder and my attitude might follow. I have slipped a few times on taking meds to feel good. I have slipped on my healthy diet. I have slipped (more like crashed) on exercise.

Tomorrow I am going to try to connect with the doctor I know that I believe can help me with any general health issues. I will work on my diet, gettIng whatever exercise I can start with and try to build on that. And I will try to work on my mental and emotional side.

This is the best I can do. All I can think to do. And all I know to do. If this isn't good enough and I don't feel any improved sense of hope then I'm done. But once again I will show up and try. I think if I could find more support it would help me. All I can think of is NA and that is a mixed bag. I've been to years of private counciling/therapy (that never did much good either). Strangely, I wish I could find a good group of people to be with together. But good luck finding that.

I appreciate everyone and wish you all the very best.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Lucy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:01 am

You sound like you may be a bit depressed. I'm glad you're going to see a doc that you know is competent and you can trust. Hopefully that input will prove to be very helpful to you. I think Sub4Seven has a point, in as much as (perhaps due to your state of mind) you not feeling like you've come as far as you have on this. I agree with you that the aim is to improve our quality of life, not make it worse. At least in the long term. And you've hit a very real and serious roadblock with your lack of energy.

Getting the diet and an exercise regimen in order can only make things better for you. So you're still moving forward if you start working on those areas .... and don't go up significantly in sub dose. You've got to do what's going to work best for you within parameters that are acceptable and tolerable for you. Maybe if you go back to NA armed with the 1996 official bulletin (I think that's what the pronouncement was called) on welcoming people on pharmacotherapy you may encounter some initial resistance but it might pass. I'm sure you're not the only person in that position who could benefit from being accepted at meetings. I wish you all the best with whatever you decide to do and hope you keep connected here.
Reducing from 32mg. Dropped from 26mg to 16mg 8th July 2017. August 1st 12mg.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby nomojo3479 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:20 am

Fuck ya u sound depressed dd,
Prob because you are.. if u were feeling good u prob wouldn't want off the sub train, right?
Ur doing great.. .8 is so low.. just stick with it, in a few weeks ull be feeling stable, at least that's what I'm telling myself.
Basically tho, for me is I have to get this taper done, or I'm fucked.. Idk man.. I'm not positive Pauley today. So mayb I should shut up for now,
Hope today is a better day for ya homey
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:58 am

Thanks. I am sure I am deeply depressed. I will not take meds for depression. I'm going to try to at leas get stable. I can take pain, what I can't take is not getting better, not stabilizing. Here's the main reason: I precut dosages going down an average of 12% for 14 days at each dose. I made them down to .25 mg. Just to go from 0.8 mg to 0.25 mg at that rate is SIX MONTHS! And that's if I stuck to the 14 day drops...which I haven't been able to do since I go below 1 mg. My point is...it's not humane to feel this bad for that long. It's undoable. So all I want is for at least it to be a roller coaster where there's some better days, not even good, just better. I am not optimistic.

PSilver went back to work today on around day 12 of stopping. Hope you're doing OK man.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:35 pm

All I can think is that you are stuck in a cycle and the high expectations you had previously aren't helping.

Instead of going back up to 2mgs and trying to taper again....you need to except that you may not stabilize like you think you should and make your 15% cuts every 7-9 days regardless of how you feel...and get it over with.

You are not the young person under 35 like Psilver. You may not be able to ride your bicycle, only walk. You may never feel worth a shit until you get off.

So...you must stop the bad shit by crossing the finish line.

Maybe I need to come up there and administer your dose? :mrgreen:
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:26 pm

@cheeps: maybe just come up and give me a good kick in the ass...or push me off a cliff, either one is fine.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Lucy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:18 pm

Cheeps really does have a good point. You've come so far. We know sub can cause depression and if that is what's doing it then getting off asap is your best course of action. You've invested so much of yourself into this taper and you've managed to reach a dose so many do jump off from .... maybe just getting it over with is a course worth considering? 1mg is still a pretty hefty dose to jump from at our age though. You could do a fast taper from that dose to mitigate some of the impact. I'd only do this if armed with an array of comfort meds to last quite some time. And maybe access to a bp cuff.
Reducing from 32mg. Dropped from 26mg to 16mg 8th July 2017. August 1st 12mg.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:37 am

DietDoc wrote:@cheeps: maybe just come up and give me a good kick in the ass...or push me off a cliff, either one is fine.




You don't live in the mountains so that one is out. A swift kick in the pants is doable. I want you to get back on track and lower your dose by 20% every seven days....no stability, then....when you get to .25...you are going to jump. By then, you'll have the comfort meds you need to do this. It's time and we are going to make it happen...if I have to hold your hand, I will. :MrT: :MrT: :MrT: :evil: :blowme:
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:44 am

Yup...I'm thinking that's more of what the under 1 mg dose taper is going to look like. I can't do this for 6-8 months unless I got a lot better along the way. I've been just under 1 mg for at least 2 months and I am not 'stabilizing'. What I don't understand is when I first got to 1 mg I felt fine, normal. But it seems even hovering around that dose I'm getting worse without further tapering. What the hell? More confusion. And part of me isn't even sure my legs hurt from tapering at all. I wonder if there's something else wrong. I want to go back to 8 mg a day just to see if I feel functional again, to prove to me it's the sub doing this. I am truly overwhelmed. Why if it take more sub doesn't it shut down the leg pain in an hour or two? Ever been feeling terrible from agaonist narcotic depletion and then take a bunch of agonist opiates? Boom, instant relief. But wait...even more confusing...if you're in withdrawal from full agonist opiates and take Suboxone boom you feel better in minutes. THEN WHY DOESNT IT WORK LIKE THAT NOW? This goes against all the pharmacology I've been taught and all the literature. Something ain't right. THIS is why I think there's something wrong with me. Or there is some serious research missing that needs to be done. I'm losing it.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Lucy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:45 am

Hopefully Cheeps and Sub4Seven might have some insight into why this is happening. If it is the sub. I feel for you. You're between a rock and hard place atm with this situation. The not knowing which way to turn for the best solution must be undermining you mentally along with everything else.

Please just hang in there and keep posting for now until you do decide on a course of action. As long as that is well and rationally thought out and not just a reaction to the loss of control you're experiencing I'm sure you'll start moving forward again. Meanwhile, something for stress reduction might be very helpful. Meditation, long hot baths, saunas/hot tubs, massage. Whatever your favorite relaxation activities are making use of them now may help.
Reducing from 32mg. Dropped from 26mg to 16mg 8th July 2017. August 1st 12mg.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:23 am

DietDoc wrote:Yup...I'm thinking that's more of what the under 1 mg dose taper is going to look like. I can't do this for 6-8 months unless I got a lot better along the way. I've been just under 1 mg for at least 2 months and I am not 'stabilizing'. What I don't understand is when I first got to 1 mg I felt fine, normal. But it seems even hovering around that dose I'm getting worse without further tapering. What the hell? More confusion. And part of me isn't even sure my legs hurt from tapering at all. I wonder if there's something else wrong. I want to go back to 8 mg a day just to see if I feel functional again, to prove to me it's the sub doing this. I am truly overwhelmed. Why if it take more sub doesn't it shut down the leg pain in an hour or two? Ever been feeling terrible from agaonist narcotic depletion and then take a bunch of agonist opiates? Boom, instant relief. But wait...even more confusing...if you're in withdrawal from full agonist opiates and take Suboxone boom you feel better in minutes. THEN WHY DOESNT IT WORK LIKE THAT NOW? This goes against all the pharmacology I've been taught and all the literature. Something ain't right. THIS is why I think there's something wrong with me. Or there is some serious research missing that needs to be done. I'm losing it.




If you go back to eight, I will find you and I really will come kick your ass. :MrT: Your need for ANSWERS to everything is highly interfering with your resolve.

I want you to use an excel chart, go back and record how much exercise, duration, strenuousity, and result for the past two months.

Let's find out what's wrong by eliminating other issues besides sub. Have you had blood work in the past month?
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Eyedotz » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:53 pm

Hey DD,
I don't think there is anyone in this world that feels stabilized under 1mg. When the word 'stabilized' is used...it means it's 'I slightly don't feel like I'm going to die'. This is because you are way under the ceiling effect...your body is constantly in w/d. You need to be ok with feeling like shit because you simply will. There are no quick fixes besides patience and time. If you taper slowly like you have been... you will eventually adjust to it. It will become the new normal. You need to understand that this is only TEMPORARY. Live in the moment... don't worry about what you can do differently. Simply, just taper and hold strong though the ups and downs.

I have faith in you man... you only need to adjust your focus to the big picture. Seriously doc...I tapered for 9 LONG months and dealt with it as it came. I took no comfort meds besides motrin and Ibuprofen... I could do this after 13 years... so can you. Just keep tapering dude. Please be strong, we all have faith in you.

Hugs,
~Dotz
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13 Year Sub survivor - Jumped at .03mg after 9 month taper from 4-6mg.
JUMP DATE MARCH 18th, 2016

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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Eyedotz » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:24 pm

Also, I just read your comments on Sub7's thread... by any chance, are you split dosing? I highly recommend it, if not. I split dosed until the end... I would take 3/4 dose in the am and the other 1/4 at night so I could get some rest. You can even triple split if you want... just do not spike. I'm sorry but I couldn't remember if you were a single doser or not. Like Lucy mentioned... Motrin will help RLS. I had to take it every night for a while (you don't want to this long-term though)... it really does help with settling you down and anxiety.
Eyedotz Spotify playlist (EDM Detox Mix)
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13 Year Sub survivor - Jumped at .03mg after 9 month taper from 4-6mg.
JUMP DATE MARCH 18th, 2016

Forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know before you learned it.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Sub4Sevenyrs » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:07 pm

Eyedotz is right about everything she said, I would suggest trying the split-dosing as well, see if it helps, it should. Motrin also for RLS, I had a doctor tell me you can take up to 6 motrin a day with no problems, not sure you want to be doing that for months or years but Motrin def helps, I still take it sometimes.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby cheeps » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:14 am

Where the hell are you?
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:54 pm

I am alive. I'm in some stage of detox. One day I can't move and am wearing the lead suit and have to lay dow most of the day. Then suddenly the opposite, total insomnia, can't sit still and moving is the lesser of two evils. The roller coaster ride of bupe.

I am dropping from 1 mg to .9 mg this week. I went back up about .2 mg to see if I felt any better and try to 'normalize'. I do feel better, not great, but better.

I had this big commitment Labor Day weekend. It's basically a family reunion type party that I've been hosting at my home for a decade. It's a big deal in my family. It's also a lot of work and stress for me. About the same as producing a small wedding. I mention it because I said screw it this year and canceled it. I just couldn't stand this looming over my head. Paint this, fix that, get those, order more of them, etc. I feel like I am now free to feel as bad as I have to and not deal with Aunt Rose and her stories about having to get her feet scrapped by Dr. Schossingstein. Although I will miss making out with my cousin in the Jacuzzi this year.

I'm pretty sure how this is going to go, or at least what I'm going to do. I think I am going to taper until I am more frustrated that taking a low dose isn't doing much, or enough, and then jump. I made it about 6 weeks ago down to .5 mg/d. I had rubber legs, lead suit, RLS et at and if I feel like that again I'm pulling the plug.

I understand that a long, slow taper builds character and teaches patience but you have to know yourself too. I just don't have that type of temperament or disposition to go on like that. I don't know for sure when and where it will be but I know eventually I will jump from a dose tha is tenths not hundredths of a milligram. Even if that is .5 mg that has to be much better than a 2 mg jump, which many people have successfully done.

I read everybody's threads and words can't express my appreciation to you all.

In a lighter note, my official 'mid-50s' birthday is August 6. I will be celebrating the night of August 5th into the 6th with Roger Waters. Yes, I'll be with Mr. Pink Floyd in Washington, D.C. for my birthday. So there is still some great times ahead, my dream and goal is to live the great times to come WITHOUT THIS FUCKING CHEMICAL PARASITIC ALBATROSS SUCKING OFF MY SOUL.

Sub sux, that is all.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Don_Pisto » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:43 pm

DietDoc wrote:I'm pretty sure how this is going to go, or at least what I'm going to do. I think I am going to taper until I am more frustrated that taking a low dose isn't doing much, or enough, and then jump.


You'll know when it's time to jump for you. I had originally planned to taper down to something super low like .02 and "walk off" but when I was down to .25mg and ready to do my next drops I basically reached a point where I said "fuck this" because things were pretty much staying the same and just seeing how tiny amount of liquid there was it was pissing me off ... I don't remember the exact numbers I did, but I did my next drop to something to like .20, then the next day to .18, then the third day to .15 then the forth day I just tried "skipping a day" and that turned out to be it. I just didn't have it in me to drag it on for many more weeks. It would probably would have been better if I stuck to the plan, but the time for me came to end and that was that. You're almost there. Try to get a little lower still like .5mg at least, if you can, before pulling the plug. You'll know when it's time for you though.
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby DietDoc » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:20 am

"It would probably would have been better if I stuck to the plan, but the time for me came to end and that was that."

So, this concerns me a bit. In retrospect you feel you'd have suffered less withdrawal? And you started dropping daily?!? Interesting. Why do you wish you'd stuck to your original plan?

Thanks Don.
I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is a vengeful, angry one. The other wolf is a loving, compassionate one. Which wolf will win the fight in my heart? The one I feed.

Buprenorphine: 9+ years @ 16 mg/d ave. - Tapering over past 8 months to under 1 mg/d and counting
Alprazolam: 4+ years @ 3 mg/d ave. - Tapered to freedom May 2016
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Re: My Taper Journal

Postby Don_Pisto » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:17 pm

DietDoc wrote:So, this concerns me a bit. In retrospect you feel you'd have suffered less withdrawal? And you started dropping daily?!? Interesting. Why do you wish you'd stuck to your original plan?


Maybe possibly I would of had an easier time at the end but honestly I think I would have had the same net effects in either case. When stopping, I mainly had the lead suit effect and RLS but I was also feeling this same exact shit during the low taper period. I think what would have happened if I extended the taper 6 more weeks is I would have felt the same crappy feeling all that time then possibly walk off, but that's pretty much the same thing I felt stopping earlier -- I had the same symptoms during taper and by 6 weeks I was feeling fine. I don't regret stopping when I did though. I was just sick of putting that fucking poison in my body and I'm glad I stopped when I did.
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