Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for all

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Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for all

Postby rc51guy » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:02 pm

Hey everyone! As most of you long timers know, I have been off subs now for well over a year. I believe around 1 year and 8 months or so. April of 2015...that seems like such a long time ago.

I am writing to throw this out there in the hopes it will help someone, while allowing me to get it off my chest.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible, but its likely gonna get long..... I got off subs after many years on. Everything was going really well for a while...Until it wasnt. While I cant narrow it down exactly, around sept of 2015 I re-injured my lower back. This had happened many years ago...and it was super painful. They never did pinpoint the issue back then, but after one cortisone shot, I was back to my good old self. God I wish that was the case the second time.

This time, It progressively got worse. I spent nights laying on the living room floor. Not sleeping because my back would be spasming so bad it felt like a dull knife was slowly and repeatedly being drawn through my lower back/ribs. I tried everything. Massage. Stretching. Muscle Stim. Epsom Salt baths. More Massage. Had X-rays. Had a CT Scan. Had an MRI. All inconclusive. I had 4-5 cortisone shots over the course of a few months. All cash out of pocket. I stayed on gabapentin throughout my detox from subs and for the months after and then they continued it, because the doctors thought it was nerve pain. It was some of the most prolonged severe pain I've been in. It had an affect on my marriage. It had an effect on work. It affected everything I loved to do. I still tried to do the things I loved..But a flat 2 mile "hike" with my family had me in literal tears. Nothing helped.

It couldn't have come at a worse possible time. Under a year off of a highly powerful narcotic, after years and years of RX'd pain pills for spinal issues.... and there I was. I denied any extremely powerful narcotics. I thought I could beat it. But I gave in. The doctors put me on tramadol. It didn't really help much, but it did take a tiny edge off the sharp spasms. I think I was on tramadol, gabapentin, and sometimes flexiril for 3 months or so. I should have known better. I should of told the doctors I couldn't take that crap. The good thing was, I stopped taking the gabapentin, with no ill effect. (Which I had been nervous about for quite some time). Problem was I was now taking tramadol. By no means a lot...but daily as prescribed. I was told it could be a pinched nerve, but due to the severe pain and spasm that it was likely I tore a muscle in my lumbar area and they just couldn't see it on any of the tests. Ive had a tough life pain wise... I've had a lot of surgeries/injuries. I know pain...and from around noon time until I was able to finally fall asleep...on the 1-10 scale we all know so well - this was knocking on the 10. The only time it would subside would be if I laid still on my back on a hard surface for 20-30 minutes, or if I had actually been able to sleep it would feel decent in the mornings typically until I was on my way to work. Then the spams would start. It frequently took everything I had to shower and be able to dry myself off, it would be so painful.

It was around March, when I took on a remodel job. I fought through the pain when we began demo. I was still taking tramadol, and flexiril at night. I was busting my butt...physical and mentally. A couple weeks of hard work went by, and man....I had a decent stretch of like 2-3 days where the pain wasn't bad. Those days turned into a week....2 weeks.. a month! And here I am today, in December and all of the severe pain has subsided. I cant tell you why or what....but it seemed like working hard actually helped heal whatever was going on. I can remember the exact moment I last took 5 minutes to lay down on my back to ease the pain one day during demo. I can tell you the exact spot in that house. Who was present. And that it was an overcast day. It was such a terrific day.

So thats the story. And here is the problem. Sometime in around May-early june, Once my back began feeling better...I became so utterly fearful of withdrawing from the tramadol. I stopped taking it, and whether it was mental or real....the next morning I woke with that tight feeling in my chest. Anxiety. I started sneezing later that day. I got restless. Was I truly going to have to go through opiate withdrawals all over again? No no no...I remembered that I had once tried kratom when I didn't get my sub rx refilled on time. It didn't really work all that great when I was on 16 MG of suboxone...but maybe it will help with this tramadol stuff.

It did. It still does. I am still taking it daily and currently obsessing about stopping it and how I am going to have to go through this all again to some extent. It will likely be easier on me physically, but right now it is taking one hell of a mental toll. I am ashamed. And I am afraid.

I think I am only taking like 1.5 grams 4 times a day right now, which isn't much compared to some who take this god awful green crap. But I still feel those all too familiar feelings creeping in if I dont take it. God....life is fun, isnt it!?

For those of you recently clean off subs....keep your guard up. I know I didn't ask for this...but I dont think I truly ever tried to do anything about it. :deadhorse:
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Poncho » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:03 am

I used kratom to get off sub about 5-6 years ago. It does suck to still be dependent on something but it's def the lesser of the 2 evils. Tapering off as we speak.
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:29 pm

I researched Kratom a little bit to see if it would help me get off subs. I decided not to pursue it because I used subs for anxiety,and it sounded like kratom helps a lot with anxiety for some people, and I was afraid it would be even harder for me to come off, but I ended up reading a lot of people's taper plans on kratom. It seems like people have a pretty okay time tapering if they go slow and use 'stem and vein' Kratom (and if they stay far away from any extracts). Apparently stem and vein has a slightly different alkaloid profile or something like that, which helps people get off it. If you haven't checked in to it already, reddit has a good kratom subreddit, and also a subreddit just for kicking kratom.

Since you have kicked a hard core fucker like subs, I bet you'll handle kicking kratom without too much trouble. And in my opinion, no one should have to live in pain like you described. If I was in the pain you were talking about, I would hands down do the same thing you did. May you stay pain free.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

Hozier-Arsonist's Lullabye

Telling subs to fuck off since March 20, 2017
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:17 am

Thank you both for taking the time to reply.

Poncho - have you been taking kratom for the full 5-6 years? How much daily and have you ever tried to stop? The only bad things I can really say about it is that is seems to of brought on anxiety and slight depression maybe. Mentally, Im kicking myself in the butt over it...as you can probably tell.

Chee - It seems to work just like a true opiate. At first there is slightl euphoria, anxiety/worry free, etc. But after a few months it seems to do just the same as opiates and makes those things worse. At least in my experience. Also seems to wreck your libido.

While I dont expect it will be anything like sub withdrawal....especially since I havent been taking it too too long and at much lower doses then most seem to, Its still making me anxious as hell.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby cheeps » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:18 am

RC......you don't know how freaking glad I am to see you put it out here. I'm not much help these. Days with all the issues I am facing. The forum has the peeps like poncho and others who have been down this road....as I have not used kratom more than three times in my career.

I would like to see you work on removing the shame. Pain and anxiety stemming from it are overwhelming and keep us in places we don't want to be. It's a human thing to want relief. Shame is good in small doses but you must forgive yourself first and foremost. Lean on those who have experience with the K. Thank you to all who help rc.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Poncho » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:23 pm

rc51guy wrote:Thank you both for taking the time to reply.

Poncho - have you been taking kratom for the full 5-6 years? How much daily and have you ever tried to stop? The only bad things I can really say about it is that is seems to of brought on anxiety and slight depression maybe. Mentally, Im kicking myself in the butt over it...as you can probably tell.

Chee - It seems to work just like a true opiate. At first there is slightl euphoria, anxiety/worry free, etc. But after a few months it seems to do just the same as opiates and makes those things worse. At least in my experience. Also seems to wreck your libido.

While I dont expect it will be anything like sub withdrawal....especially since I havent been taking it too too long and at much lower doses then most seem to, Its still making me anxious as hell.


John, I've been using it off and on for that 5-6 year period and I have gone days without it with no real WD's. Don't beat yourself up and just continue with your taper plan.
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:47 pm

Seems like some people swear they dont get any type of withdrawal. But those who use it daily for extended periods can have pretty nasty withdrawal.

Me? I was probably using 4 full teaspoons a day at the most a few weeks ago. Ive drastically cut that down to around 2 teaspoons broken up in 3 to 4 doeses throughout the day. I am battling anxiety though. Whether or not its a symptom manifested from cutting down kratom, or if it is internally manifested I cant tell.

Pretty sure this stuff affects more then just the opiate receptors.

I told cheeps - I think I am coming to grips with the fact that this whole ordeal with my back could of led me down a much darker road...ie back on full time rx'd opiates which would prob lead back to subs. So...you are right. It is certainly the lesser of evils and I need to stop beating myself up for it. Even with the holidays, or maybe even more so because of them...it constantly occupies my mind that I need to stop taking it and that I messed up.

So much fun!

EDIT: maybe I should read my own signature more often. It seems extremely relevant in my current situation.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby cheeps » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:07 pm

put a post it note up on your rear view mirror!!!
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
Oxy free 12/06/14
2017 taper in progress
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Poncho » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:41 pm

I was using way too much for a while.When I say "no real WD" I was comparing it to opiate or Sub WD. I did have WD symptoms (yawning, sneezing, like a bad flu) It didn't feel good, that's for sure. I've cut way back without feeling too bad but I'm sure I'll be sick for a week or so once I'm completely off.
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Subblind » Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:12 pm

RC,dealing with pain is a very slippery slope,that in my case manifests itself into a circular fucking guilt fest.
Wanting and wishing to get off the bupe while dealing with pulverized nerve endings in my spine.The wife and 3 kids I am responsible for deserve to not have a drug dependent husband/father who's able to continue doing physical labor to pay ALL the fucking bills...except it's literally killing me even taking more bupe than I wish I was...The real answer is...there is no fucking answer...this is what I'm mentally battling with and it completely sucks.i HATE---HATE the position I'm in,wanting to be drug free and having to grind out a living.

Not really sure what point I'm trying to make other than your not alone in the shitty position your in. I know you added to my thread a while back and we spoke of being hands on type guys and striped bass assasins...I just wanted you to know I feel for you man... just keep doing the best you can,that's what I keep telling myself too...
Regards,SB
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby The Blind Ass » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:22 pm

What caused the pain?
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Subblind » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:43 pm

Is that question directed at rc51 or Subblind?
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby The Blind Ass » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:21 am

rc51..but I would like to know for you too.
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:27 am

Hey SB! Yea dude - I know we were kinda in the same boat. What do the docs say about your spinal issues? Any chance at trying again to have it corrected? Back when I had neck surgery, it took many different procedures until one finally did the trick. It was a long road.. a painful one. But after like 5 years I finally got relief.

I hear you on the circular guilt fest. Its a tough thing to deal with, especially while trying to put a smile on for the family and do day to day shit...all while fighting an internal battle of feelings. Look on the bright side....we all have to. It could always be worse. Truthfully.

PS: how'd you do fishing this spring-fall? I did more trout fishing then I did salt this year, did go out a few times with the fly rod. All I caught were little schoolies. Seems like fishing is changing, all around. Everywhere. Its just not what It used to be. Salt, Fresh, whatever. It was a tough year.

The blind ass - My lumbar pain was never officially "diagnosed". They believe it was either a torn muscle...or a trapped/pinched nerve resulting in severe spasm.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:30 am

Also - not sure how I forgot to mention this. I believe I have found the source of my recent anxiety. For the last few months I have been taking psuedophedrine daily for congestion. While it had helped that, apparently It was giving me pretty bad anxiety and restlessness. I was so wrapped up in this kratom crap that I never even thought about it until on my way home Friday evening. Sat and sun I took none, and I have to say I feel a bit better. Anxiety/clarity wise.

So - now on to tapering off the kratom. With hopefully much less anxiety.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Subblind » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:55 am

rc,hey man I happen to be home waiting for the appliance guy to come fix our dishwasher...I know it sounds spoiled but living for a week without a dishwasher is another kind of hell...

So as far as fixing my issues surgically,the surgeon I've consulted with years ago explained that my nerve damage is so severe that it shows up as being mashed and flattened like it was pounded with a hammer.hes afraid to touch it and I'm afraid to let anyone else touch it...I know where I stand with this,I will not let someone paralyze me hoping they
"Might" be able to help...won't go there,like I said I know what I'm dealing with and I can still do what I have to do.
Not interested in hearing a dr tell me"well sometimes things don't go the way we planned" FUCK THAT...

This may have been the worst fishing year I've seen in a lifetime.we have a big issue here with nitrogen getting into our bays via run off of golf courses and farm fields,along with cess pool run off its dramatically changing the fishes ability to breathe,hence the reduction in catchable fish...we have had some big fish kills just last month that took out literally billions of bunker and littered the shore line in front of some of the most exclusive waterfront homes out here.i watched it for almost an hour and they were just swimming in circles and the nitrogen filled water depletes the oxygen levels and they just die in mass.really very sad to watch...I'm literally screaming at them"swim toward the fucking inlet"they just didn't listen.

Interesting issue with the allergy medicine,I hope by stopping it you have an easier time getting the kratom situation to go away.if it ain't one thing it's something else.?.?.?be well my friend,have a blessed holiday and my best to your family...SB
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Wed May 03, 2017 3:05 pm

Just figured I would update everyone - I am 3 days off the green kratom shit finally. Not feeling terrible. Minor symptoms. Trucking along.

Subblind - Been doing really well trout fishing with the fly so far this year. Looking forward to some stripers on the fly this year! Hope your hanging in there buddy.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Thu May 04, 2017 10:50 am

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Last edited by rc51guy on Thu May 04, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby rc51guy » Thu May 04, 2017 12:35 pm

Day 4 and much of the same. Not feeling terrific but by no means the hell of Bupe W/d. Minor upset stomach. Minor fatigue (that I attribute to working my ass off on a job) and a few sneezes which i attribute to allergies. Slept through the night each night so far. Dont wake up in a panic.

Kinda waiting for the hammer to drop as some people seem to say it doesnt even start until the 5th day. Hopefully not the case here.
“The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven..”
― John Milton
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Re: Kinda just feel like talking....and a maybe a lesson for

Postby Subblind » Thu May 04, 2017 3:28 pm

Don't worry about it Rc just roll through like nothing ever happened... see if mind over matter gets you over the hump ...if there is a hump.and like you said it won't be anything like what youve already been through. Keep letting us know how your holding up
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