Desperatly need help with PAWS

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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Joe65 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:08 pm

That smiley face went in the wrong place !
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Sub zero » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:56 am

I wouldn't call it PAWS unless its been a year or so since you have quit. In my experience, Sub is a long half-life opioid and at 3-1/2 weeks your'e still experiencing the WD's. The symptoms should dramatically improve in another couple weeks. Then, after 6 months of relative ease, you wake up one morning feeling that familiar "lead suit", that achy shaky feeling...but it doesn't have the "depth" of the early acute stage WD's....and in my case, they were not an all day thing...mainly a before noon phenomenon. When I had what I suspected to be PAWS, they occurred around the one year mark. IIRC that is...and the good thing is after enough time off of sub, you begin to forget everything!
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby The Blind Ass » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:26 pm

Sub - what dose did you jump from? Just wondering because of the timeline you gave for your PAWS.
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Joe65 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:04 pm

Hi Sub, I have taken subs before, but I tapered down to .25mg. I was having real pain at the time with a disc in my neck and needed to take pain meds. That's how I got off the subs the first and only other time. I was only on them for about 6-8 months. I'm not sure exactly. This time I was on them almost a year. I never got higher than 3-4 mgs and that was only once or twice. I was only taking 1/2mg for most of the beginning months. Then started taking higher doses but mostly stayed at 2mg. It isn't wds I'm experiencing, it's zero energy. I can't take off any more work, and it's a struggle just to take a shower. Most of the wds started to subside after around 2 1/2 weeks. but I went 29 days and my energy wasn't getting any better. I really think I jumped at too high a dose, and my brain just didn't have a chance to start making the neurotransmitters on it's own yet.I read that some people have jumped at higher doses. But they were also able to take higher doses. I think because I'm older, I might be more sensitive. I really don't have a clue, I'm just guessing. I'm starting to feel the zero energy again, and just don't know what to do. UGH !!!! I need the amino acids I'm taking to kick in faster !
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby The Blind Ass » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:14 pm

Have you tried 5 hour energy drinks? Modinafil? I havent tried the last one but maybe its something to consider if your truly - as I call it - " Swimming In It " kind of tired and energy less. You are older so that is obviously a factor - but the symptoms will let up and they stop eventually and then you are all of a sudden...fine. Ask some others on the forum about those 2 things. Or use my method and blast music and dance around like a mad man and revel in contempt of your withdrawal symptoms till your blood starts flowing nice and right. Oh and drink a ton of water please....if your still taking comfort meds they (some of them) can contribute to lethargy and hence potentate the feeling of lack of energy. Dont look back just dont do it! Theres nothing there anyways. Keep going and in a couple of months it will be like this whole phase of your life was just some shitty dream. Show the babes how its done -
your rocking it - chin up cheer up chin up go go go ! :kiss:
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby cheeps » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:40 am

Don_Pisto wrote:
cheeps, you still giving people hell here? i was scared to death to get on your bad side when i was tapering and it served me well



Well the one that needs it most has sworn off....So yeah....I guess i nail them in spurts. Kicked them to the damn curb. :wired: :shrug: :blowme:
10 yrs on methadone
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Joe65 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:10 am

Thanks BA for the advice. I think I will try the music thing. Might get my body moving too. I used to drink the 5 hour energy drinks, but then they started making me jittery. Probably was taking too many. My stupid drug thinking mind always thinks more is better. But I might try one.
Cheeps sorry I forgot to answer you. No I don't have OSA. I never heard of Modinafil BA so I looked it up. You need an rx for it. I live in NY and we have the toughest drug laws as far as dispensing. I go to a primary care MD that has a group of DR's and if your DR isn't available. They give you who ever is.Sometimes I would get pain meds, but It wasn't like I went there every month. ( like I used to do 30 years ago) lol I've been going there for about 15 years. Then I was at the same time going to a psychiatrist I would go to for xanax because I was having chronic insomnia. Then a orthopedic for various injuries, and sometimes they would give me pain meds. I'm also seeing a sleep specialist a neurologist who after 3 sleep studies and trying every med under the sun Prescribes me klonipin. Now I have been seeing the same DR's for many years, but in NY I am considered a DR shopper. They just started this I-stop program about 5 years ago. Now 30 years ago yes I was Dr shopping. Everyone was lol. But I had alot of clean years in between picking up here and there. So nobody is going to give me anything. It's very hard to get controlled meds from any Dr. They are too afraid of loosing their license.
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Sub zero » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:48 pm

The Blind Ass wrote:Sub - what dose did you jump from? Just wondering because of the timeline you gave for your PAWS.


16 mgs cold turkey. IIRC my acute phase lasted like six weeks...then I felt pretty good for several months after that...the PAWS came between the 1 year and 1-1/2 year mark. They were'nt bad at all, a minor annoyance....really. I think the worst part of PAWS...when they come well after the acute wd's have disappeared...is that your'e like "WTF!!! I don't deserve this after all I've been through. I already suffered through the WD's and have been feeling good for months...WTH is this shit"?
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Sub zero » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:56 pm

The Blind Ass wrote:Dont look back just dont do it! Theres nothing there anyways. Keep going and in a couple of months it will be like this whole phase of your life was just some shitty dream.


Well said. That's exactly what it's like. :thumbup:
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:35 pm

Honestly, it blows my mind people can jump from 16mgs. The way this long, slow taper has affected my health makes me think a jump from a high dose would've just killed me. Major respect man.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:49 pm

Hey Joe's wife,
How did your day go? I know you are taking an amino acid regiment and you keep saying you want them to kick in, but have you noticed a difference at all by taking any of them? I have been doing a slow taper, and sometimes I am so wiped out, it is too much for me to even type a response on here. I will start one, and just close the tab because I am zapped of energy. I am trying to just accept it will be like this for awhile, especially since I haven't even jumped yet. So, I am just curious if you have found any relief from a particular amino acid, because if you have, maybe you could pinpoint what exactly that amino acid is doing and where, and look up other similar things that might help.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Joe65 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:48 pm

CheeZeeAnnDee wrote:Hey Joe's wife,
How did your day go? I know you are taking an amino acid regiment and you keep saying you want them to kick in, but have you noticed a difference at all by taking any of them? I have been doing a slow taper, and sometimes I am so wiped out, it is too much for me to even type a response on here. I will start one, and just close the tab because I am zapped of energy. I am trying to just accept it will be like this for awhile, especially since I haven't even jumped yet. So, I am just curious if you have found any relief from a particular amino acid, because if you have, maybe you could pinpoint what exactly that amino acid is doing and where, and look up other similar things that might help.

Hi, CheeZeeAnnDee, I really fell lousy, The amino acids i'm taking were recommended by a member on another site. I can't find the site or member, but I printed out his post, because it made alot of sense . I don't have any energy, and I mean like it's a struggle to take a shower. I only started taking them a few days ago and he said it could take a few weeks to start working. I jumped way too high, 1.5mg and I don't know how much longer I can go on like this. I almost want to go back on a low dose to feel better and jump from a much lower dose. But I've suffered almost a month now, and I don't want it to be for nothing. He stated that he read a book by a Dr Gant called End Your Addiction Now. He explained that when we take drugs especially something like opiates benzos and such. It can slow down our normal production of endorphins, dopamine, and nor- epinephrine. the amino acids are supposed to jump start your brain to get working the way it should before it became dependent on outside substances. So when you stop taking the drug you are not producing what you should be, and have no energy. I'm just quoting what he said. There are also vitamins and minerals you take. He said he started taking them while he was tapering. I could give you the list of what i'm taking, but not tonight. I'm too tired to write with 2 fingers lol The book was only $14.99 on Amazon & I got it in 2 days. It's easy to read also. Pat
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby The Blind Ass » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:02 pm

Good healthy wholesome foods hitting all the right food tables will give you most of what you need as well. If you cant stomach enough food at the moment then supplements and vitamins and amino acid therapy is good, hell both together probably is Ok too - but remember we are talking about a living organism that needs healing and that takes time even with the best technology and medicine and food aggregates - like building a house or raising a child. Keep going Joe's Wife! Dont Look back! Dont fall for what you know is just a trick ...an illusion! You will feel duped and have to do it all over again and the cycle of suffering from something that is not even needed truly in the human diet will haunt you for longer than necessary.... I Promise in a few weeks and then a couple of months you'll look back and laugh like a lunatic at how you were free'd from this poison simply by not taking the poison and caring for yourself while you transition back to homeostasis. Music Music Music! Do it! It'll make your feet start dancing even when your head is telling you your too tired...this helps with the natural feel good chems too.

Here is my "prayer" or mantra and truth and Oath to myself for when things are at their roughest and their best.

"Abandoning the intellect that craves security
in what is only dream, magic show, mirage,
reflection, echo and apparition,
let primal awareness and spontaneity regain their primacy.

Once obsessed by the carnal city and emotions,
now fled from the thick jungle of uncertainty
to cool groves far distant,
let the heavens extol and acclaim those babes.

May this, my mind, loathing distraction,
in happy seclusion in the peaceful forest,
focusing only upon real meaning,
achieve the immaculate insight of the exalted.

In this forest of flowers, leaves and fruit,
enhanced by the clear waters of a renunciate lifestyle,
may this my embodiment of unique occasion and right juncture,
walk the path of freedom to the treasure of profound meaning.

In this brief transit, until I attain my goal,
practicing virtue in this world of men,
on the path of peace, realizing skillful means,
may I release incalculable beings from this fictive world".
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Sub zero » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:12 pm

CheeZeeAnnDee wrote:Honestly, it blows my mind people can jump from 16mgs. The way this long, slow taper has affected my health makes me think a jump from a high dose would've just killed me. Major respect man.


Cold turkey vs. taper is one of those endless debates like Ford Vs. Chevy. You will find that most people fit exclusively into one category or the other. I, myself, have never noted a difference in the two. Quitting and the WD's sucks big-time and in my experience there is no difference between taper and cold turkey. Whichever method works for the user is the best method...it's the destination of abstinence which is important...not how you get there.
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby CheeZeeAnnDee » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:41 pm

Joe's wife, don't worry about typing out the list, I have a good idea of what kind of supplements you are taking. I have tried a large amount of them myself, but didn't stick with them. I do take quite a few different vitamins and supplements, but mostly stuff to help deal with anxiety and nerve issues.

I think Sub Zero just laid out some wisdom. The path isn't as important as what you do when you get to the end. To be honest, sometimes during my taper I wondered if I was making the whole process harder by tapering, just because it draws everything out and on top of that, those little tiny doses don't provide much relief...maybe a couple hours, and I wonder sometimes if rocking my brain back and forth on that edge is too much for it. By that I mean, maybe it is making it hard for my brain to really figure out how to heal when I am letting it go through withdrawal, then giving it a tiny bit of bupe, then make it withdraw again, ad infinitum. Kinda torturous, but I was never capable of just jumping off a higher dose.

You though, have already done it! You jumped baby! That is amazing, and going back on a low dose might just be confusing for your brain. Kinda like a kid crashing from a sugar binge, your brain has made it through the shitty part and just needs a while to stabilize and figure out what is going on. Tossing it another candy bar, even a mini one, might just make it harder to stabilize and the relief it would provide is fleeting...so, so fleeting. And then it is back to square one again.

But I could be wrong. Just my perspective with the limited experience I have tapering over the past 9 months or so. Only you know your body and as long as you are honest with yourself about everything, you'll know what you need to do.
All you have is your fire
And the place you need to reach
Don't you ever tame your demons
But always keep them on a leash

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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Sub zero » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:38 pm

CheeZeeAnnDee wrote: I think Sub Zero just laid out some wisdom. The path isn't as important as what you do when you get to the end. To be honest, sometimes during my taper I wondered if I was making the whole process harder by tapering, just because it draws everything out and on top of that, those little tiny doses don't provide much relief...maybe a couple hours, and I wonder sometimes if rocking my brain back and forth on that edge is too much for it.


I liken it to pulling off a Bandage. You can go very slowly...and it is a long and moderately painful process...or you can rip it off quickly...a quick, intense pain which is "short and sweet" LOL. Quite frankly, after years of reading comments here, I have noticed that the taperers are just as miserable as anyone else. But as I said before...whatever works best for each individual person is the ticket.
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Joe65 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:13 pm

CheeZeeAnnDee and sub zero, Thanks for the support. you don't know how much it means to me to not be in this alone. The last thing I want to do is go back on subs. I suffered so much, it was awful. The only reason I would ever even consider it ( which I have no intentions of doing) is because I have zero energy, and It still isn't getting even a little better. I am going to push through as hard as I can. The hardest part is my job, and trying to deal with my patients Dr's ,& Therapist he has 3 that come to his apartment 3 x a week each. Two of them are compulsive talkers !!!! I'm ready to strangle them. I even have my husband call me to go upstairs( my patient lives downstairs in my house) to help him with something. Just to get the hell away from them ! I can't deal with them under normal circumstances !!! But they are great with my patient, and that's who it's supposed to be about. Then there are 2 agencies involved, one of them shorted me over $700 last pay period. ( I get paid every 2 weeks) When I call them they act like I'm doing something wrong and bothering them. Then there are the nurses all with different personalities. Then there is my darling husband who has been lying to me about how much sub he has been taking. Just seeing how effed up he was yesterday is enough to make me never want to touch that evil stuff again. We took a ride to the beach, because i just wanted to outdoors and get some fresh air. I love the beach. Even though it's winter here yesterday was 43 degrees. It felt so good to be there, but him being so messed up ruined it. He didn't want to walk this nature trail that he usually loves. I was so disappointed because I really needed it. Before subs we had such a close relationship we have been married 20years and were best friends. i really miss what we had. Not to mention we have wasted a whole year of our life. He retired in September, we were supposed to buy a motor home, redo our kitchen and bathroom ect. We waited so long for him to retire and now our dreams are on sub hold :( Thanks for listening, if you managed to hear me whine for so long. Sorry, I feel so depressed :(
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby The Blind Ass » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:31 pm

Im right here with you Joe's Wife. Keep going! I keep trekking several miles the last couple days and it helps being outdoors in solitude where you can just be. Also doing other activities like playing music and listening to it helps mentally enormously. The energy is coming back for me slowly too but energy is free baby... remember its not created or destroyed just transferred so find the good stuff with some to spare and love it till it enters you. You gotta dance I swear.... maybe I am nuts but I doubt any one has ever danced this much in their lives while in opiate withdrawals.
Its better then rolling around and groaning for hours, that is sure. chin up - cheer up - sun comes up! Your almost through the worst really and truly. Disco that shit out of your system if you have too and keep up the fluids and good foods and supplements. You can do this - you will do this! The only way to fail is to take an action that makes you fail...swear off that action and via non action you will prevail against any odds.
Remember with jsut a bit more time and you will think it was all just a funky dream. Go go go! Another day lived for you!
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby Subblind » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:06 pm

hi joe,your doing great...even though you feel like total shit you've gotten through it...DO NOT let your husbands continued usage deter you or bring you down. It sounds like once you get close to being yourself again you can help him do the same.The motor home and the house renovations will be there...don't lose sight of that.
Just the fact that you included that in your thread shows that your thinking of good,normal things...

Funny thing,we went to the beach yesterday too...it was @50 degrees in NY and as pitiful as it sounds,you take advantage of that kind of day in January in the NE.ive been reading your thread all along and am really hoping you feel better soon...if I had any magic words of wisdom I would've added them days ago...keep taking the supplements and as much protein as you can.they say that is the building block for repairing your"brain damage"...shit just takes time.easier said than done I'm sure...every day your getting closer...god bless SB
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Re: Desperatly need help with PAWS

Postby cheeps » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:08 am

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: ima gonna spank joes assss for you...but I need an address first :mrgreen:

Yes....sub equals EVEIL!!!!! EEeeeVIL... :evil: so just keep that thought. Now...in regards to joe...seriously. You are going to have to be patient with him...one day when you are back to normal...and you will be, he will either man up and try it or he will go down in flames in your eyes....this is one of those shitty time periods in life that we all experience. So...some of the goals you two had will get nailed to the back burner until you get the crowbar out.

But it's not time yet...so file it in the coupon book. Concentrate on what you can do today. If you have to go off by yourself....do it. This is a time of change and we all know change sucks major ass when everyone isn't on board....patience. It's so fucking hard to develop if you haven't actively practiced. No, no, :nono: Riding shit out isn't patience though so....don't include that....well damn it, I've been patient! No...you've been riding shit out...so...

We talk about mindfulness and all that shit....start reading the staying clean part of the forum...you are ready for that.
10 yrs on methadone
Meth free 10/08
Back surgery 5/12/14
Knee surgery 9/19/14
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2017 taper in progress
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