ADVICE ON TAPER NEEDED

[hope101]

Hi all .75

I'll give a quick background first. Been Heroin user for 22yrs, did a 6 month ~Methadone detox back in 96 and that was the worst hell I have ever experienced. In the past 4yrs I have gone cold turkey straight off of the H a few times but last year I felt I couldn't do that again (not getting any younger) and started on the subs at 4mg. However throughout this last year I have had a 3 month period of using H and no subs then for 3 months for 2/3wks and not taking my sub, then back on the sub, back on the H.A lot of this has been my reluctance to let go of a long term relationship which I actually left 4yrs ago but keep going back to when I slip up. This time I have cut all contact with this person, changed my number, changed who I hang around with etc...I got back on the sub proper on 5th May, started on 4mg and have got myself down to 0.75mg. I am not really experiencing any WD symptoms, my sleep isn't great but then I've never been the best sleeper. I would say that I am feeling quite anxious though & am experiencing a lot of different emotions, crying some days, constantly, angry at everything & everyone the next day, agitated the next...or all 3 in one day. Is this normal???

I'm also a bit concerned as I read these 'stories' on this forum that getn off this last bit of sub is going to be a nightmare...Like I said I've had no flu like symptoms or restlessness, it seems to be more emotional stuff. I have made an appt with doctor to discuss possibility of anti-anxiety medication or anti-depressants but again not sure if I want to go down this route.

Any advice on my emotional wellbeing & taper would be much appreciated. (I'm in the UK, Scotland)

Cheers folks
xxx Hope

[hope101]

PS I'm aware that I will experience some withdrawal, like I say I've been around long enough & done a few CT's to know that no-one ever gets off scot free but I've just been reading so much negative stuff around the Suboxone that I think it's adding to my anxiousness. I see a support worker once every 2wks (that's as much support as you get here in the UK, depending on where you live) but she keeps assuring me it will be fine when I come off the Sub and to be honest I just want to get this over & done with as quickly as possible. As I feel that dragging it out over a long period of time (as my support worker) would have me do is only delaying the process of withdrawal.
Sorry if I've went on a bit I'd just like to hear other's experience and advice.

[Justjules13]

I think the lower you can get on Sub the less the WDs will be. Under .25 seems to be fairly physically uneventful...but like you said, no one gets off scot-free, the lack of opiates in the brain can cause some real emotional problems when you've used them to cope over the yrs.
Hello from Amsterdam, BTW...
J

[wastedtime]

Hi Hope,I got off 12 mg in 3 weeks.I got to 4mg and then took 2 mgs a couple of times then nothing and it wasn't too bad for me.Mainly RLS and more back pain than ususal and no sleep.Truthfully,about 3 or 4 weeks later I got on tramadol for my back which would have dealt with any more issues i might have had from the sub,but it really felt like the wd's were ending for me at about 2 weeks they were better.Oh,i had been on sub for 2 years btw.If I woul have had something to help with RLS like clonidine,i think it would have been alot easier at least for the 3 or so weeks I went without anything after jumping off the subs.So all stories aren't as bad as some.The emotional stuff is normal.Jumping at .75 is certainly possible but you may want to go even lower to minimize wd's further.All The stories about sub freak me out too but when i got off them i had not read anything about the wd's and honestly I'm glad i didn't!Welcome here and i wish you all the best,hugs,love and peace,Goldie

[hope101]

Thanks wastedtime & JustJules...I truly appreciate you taking the time to reply. I have taken onboard what you have both said and this has settled my mind down a bit.

I do feel that I will continue with my taper to the .25mg mark & try from there. I have been coming down every 3 or 4 days and like I said in my post not really experiencing anything I can't handle. I expect to have quite a few sleepless nites & RLS & fatigue...in my book these are just normal WD symptoms. I'll keep you posted on how I get on.

Am glad you both had fairly positive experiences...I was beginning to think there was no-one out there who had anything good to say about sub withdrawal!!!

Thxs & goodnight, bedtime here in Scotland. Cold & grey after our freak sunny weather & hot (for us anyway) temperatures last wk

[subster58]

Hi Hope and welcome, I would go down to a speck, less than .25mg before you jump off. stabelize with each drop. You haven't been on subs for awhile and 4mg is a low dose, but not low enough to jump. IMO only.
Everyone is different and tolerates it different. I was started at 32mg and had a difficult time, been off 30 days, fucking miracle. I read all the posts too and was told to stop reading. I read EVERYTHING I could, as I needed help from people who went off subs without drugs. Some have used drugs to get off, no judgement here ever. Keep posting, lots of good people with support.
Love and Peace
Tia

[cheeps]

For all the horror stories, there are good ones too. Just look at it as a process.....a sickness....if you taper and have support it's much better. Have PATIENCE.....

[hope101]

Cheeps & Subster58...thanks for your words of support...I'm gonna keep coming down until I get to that crumb. If I feel a bit on the 'dodgy' side I will stick for a few days instead of jumping every 3rd or 4th day. So far it's been ok...

I think I keep thinking about the time I came off the methadone...by no means was the WD as horrid as a straight cold turkey, less intense but...it seemed to last for months. I have vivid memories of thinking I was going mad, all of which wasn't helped by the fact that my partner at the time was also doing the same. We fought continually and I recall waiting for the bus to work in the mornings & feeling like my legs were goin to give way. I only took a week off work...what was I thinking. After that I never contemplated trying to get clean again until just before my 40th birthday...I am now 44!! These past 4yrs have been harder than anything. I have given myself such a hard time for my continual relapsing...but today I accept that that was my path and all I can do is keep trying.

Thanks again...gonna take 0.75mg again today and see how I feel tmrw. For me anyway I feel a lot of is my mindset and although I am anxious, I am also feeling positive...for today anyway!!

[cheeps]

Hope, I hear you on the methadone detox....that is some evil shit.

I think meth has a harder 'kick' to it.

If you can taper and NOT spike....you be find.

[wastedtime]

-

[hope101]

Cheeps what do you mean by 'not SPIKE'...does this mean to go back up again? Confused.com

[Justjules13]

That's what it means Hope..I was confused by the term too. I always thought it meant to inject something.
J

[cheeps]

That's what it means Hope..I was confused by the term too. I always thought it meant to inject something.
J

ahhhh....needle freaks coming out to play!! Jules... Down here in the south...it's known sometimes as geezing....geezing with a 'Guh' sound...not a juh sound.


OK....back to topic......do not go up or spike....stay level or drop.

[hope101]

LOL I did have to think about it for a bit...at first I was thinking do they mean to IV it??? Just show's how my mind works too.

I haven't 'spiked' so far...don't intend too. Out of curiosity, what difference would this make?

[subster58]

Hi Hope, I spiked too many times to count, and it just makes things worse to try and get off. Its like you have to start partly over from the spiked or increased dose. I thought it would make me feel better and all it did was make me sicker, your doing a great job
Keep up the great work
Lovee
Peace
Tia

[Justjules13]

I've heard that saying too...Geeze....does that make you a geezer? Lol.
I always preferred the good ol' SLAM....sounds so hardcore..lol "I'm gonna slam this aspirin" lol.

Sorry for playing around on your thread Hope. Your plan sounds good. Spiking(snicker)just undoes all your hard work going lower. Never go back up...if you can help it. You feel kinda shitty when you get down under 1mg, but I see it as kinda getting rid of some of the WDs before you jump. A lot of people are really surprised when they have fairly mild WDs...they just last forever. I think being REALLY tired is the number one complaint...
J

[wastedtime]

Hey Hope,How are you feeling?Keep us updated,Ok,best wishes and peace,goldie

[hope101]

Hi all

I hope everyone is well & enjoyed their wknd. It's been a 4 day wknd here in the UK as it's the Queens Jubilee...not that I care about that in the slightest. Us Scottish folks tend not to be very royalist, that seems to be more an English thing

I jumped to 0.5mg on Sat and so far no adverse effects, a few mins of mad sneezing when I first rise in the mornings, very slight stomach issues first thing too & the odd shiver & crawly skin at the end of the day but nothing that I can't cope with. My sleeping pattern is all over the place though I am beginning to think that I am just not a great sleeper. I've always been an early riser and am not one of these people who can lie in bed once awake, I love the early part of the day when it's all quiet then you slowly hear the world coming alive. I live in a very busy city centre & the traffic noise is constant apart from between 12am to 5am. So although I am awake & out of bed around 4/4.30am at the minute I am getting a fairly solid 5hrs sleep. I have always been up around 6am to it's no real hardship to be up early and at least the morning are light here in the summertime...I use that word loosely, it's a tad chilly here in Scotland at the minute was 1 degree centigrade when I got up yest morning but that's pretty normal for us!!!

Anyway am planning to jump to 0.25mg around thurs/fri with a view to final jump at some point next wk. Not quite sure when yet but certainly not delaying this for much longer. I would really really love to stop smoking too but one thing at a time! Am making a conscious effort to cut back on the smoking but finding the early morning cigs harder to stop than the later in the day. I think that's because I feel more anxious in the mornings at the minute...sure I'll get there in the end though. If I can stop H (and all the other drugs) and then stop the Sub I'm sure I can stop the smoking too.

Anyway you all have a fantastic day & to anyone else who is due to come off their Sub in the next wk or so or in the near future...just GO FOR IT. We can all support each other.

Peace Out
xxx Hope

[Justjules13]

Hi Hope,
As my Srink told me when I told him I wanted to stop smoking too.."one thing at a time, do the most important one first".
I hear you about the weather...I'm in the Netherlands(Amsterdam) and we had gorgeous weather about a week ago, that lasted ten days...now we are back to overcast cold weather.
I attended a NA meeting here with people from all over the world...I really liked the Scottish people. They have a great dark sense of humor I relate to. Im Scotch/Irish.
Your taper sounds like it's doing well. I would get even lower than .25 if you can....half of that(.124) My taper was very uneventful. It's the total lack of ANY opiates that gives me trouble..lol. My jump from .25 was fairly physically WD free. Mostly the lack of energy and overall "buzzy but exhausted" feeling wore me down. I used Trazadone, along with Benadryl and melatonin to help sleep. Benzos ,pot and lopermine just made me feel more washed out. I think the Clonidine helped the most. For some reason my Dr. Wouldn't I've me a scrip for it, and I need to scratch up some for my next attempt.
Ok...sounds like your doing great. I heard the meetings in Scotland are great. Have you ever been?
Cheers,
Jules

[wastedtime]

Hi Hope,
Really sounds like you are doing great.I got some shivers too in 100 degree weather sitting out in the sun!A little sneezing too.I got off sub in the hottest part of the year.I never got that crawly skin alot of people talk about.Can you get any clonidine in case you need it?It has helped so many people. It's great you are getting some sleep.Not sleeping makes things worse.Like Jules,i also think your jump would be physically uneventful.You are determined and that means so much.I am really looking forward to hear about you tapering to .25 and lower or jumping.It is so good to hear you are not having too many issues.hugs,goldie